Brand new sills

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scoobyh123
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Mar 14, 2019 9:27 pm

Pretty much confirmed what i thought Mark. The one problem with vacuum forming is that it's difficult to make anything with enough thickness to be intrinsically strong, especiall with the constraints from the original dsign making it near impossible to make a replacement panel thicker.

That leaves a very thin piece of plastic as the panel - very similar to a yogurt pot, ice cream tub, the plastic tray the 6 Mr Kipliong cakes live in until you open the polythene wrapping and chuck them down your neck.

With all of those and almost everything else similar that's vacuum formed, the plastic quickly loses its strength if it doesn't have sides or ribs in the design to support it.

The other thing that would worry me, have you seen what happens to a cake tray if it's left in the hot sun for several hours?

I'm wondering if we could find someone to make a wooden buck and former then use say 1.0mm aluminium and press the replacement panels ourselves?
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Fastback
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by Fastback » Fri Mar 15, 2019 1:37 am

Vacuum forming can be 10mm thick, way more than we need and 2400+mm wide, again more than required. Materials can be UV stable as well. 'The Plastic Works' is one company I was talking to but there are others. It comes down to cost (doesn't it flippin' always :roll: ) and what people will bear, as with other things. It's like the fuel filler pipes, will you pay the money? Filler pipe, yes. It's absolutely essential and you bin the car if you don't. £150 for a bit of cosmetic flimsy whatever, not sure.

I was very fortunate to find the presses for the sills, it has made the endeavour viable and has benefitted many. Could I have looked to make a profit being an essential part? Maybe, but that was never the point. If I could put several thousand pound up front, take a gamble on scuttle panels, then I would.

But here is a question; if you saw a brand new scuttle panel being retailed, what would you pay for it? :?
Mark
'96 820 Vitesse Lux Fastback, rolling resto
'99 825 Sterling Fastback, up and running :D
'96 825 SLi Fastback, just waiting. :|
Previous:- 'J' 820Si Fastback, part Tickford
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:40 am

I know you can vacuum form up to 10mm Mark and also use UV stable materials - what i was actually suggesting is the pure heat of the sun could easily deform the plastic. Of necessity it is most likely to be a thermoplastic (rather than a thermoset) so when heated will start to return to it's original shape.

As the design of the scuttle panel is so thin, it wouldn't take much heat from the sun to deform it. When they say it's UV stable, what i've always understood this to mean is it won't discolour or become brittle after prolonged exposure to UV rays. When the lables are printed on yogurt pots, the ink is actually dried using UV light - all kinds of interlocks on the machines to prevent people seeing the UV lights as they are powerful enough to burn retinas in an instant. Makes fault finding a nightmare!

Granted you could make it thicker but not much, after all it has to look right.

Not an easy one to fathom!

As for how much would i pay for a new scuttle panel, i'm probably the wrong person to ask as i fitted a very good one to my Sterling not so long back. I supose if i did need one, the ball park figure i'd be looking at would be in the region of £60-80, maybe a little more at a push.

Another option would be to find an old fashioned body shop capable of making their own panels. They'd need an English Wheel among other things but should be able to recreate the compound curves then fold the ends as needed. Getting the dimples for the mounting screws may be more of a challenge though, perhaps spacers and longer, flanged self-tappers would be an option.

Just trying to throw ideas up here, hoping that one or other of them might be useful.
Cheers,
Dave


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'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Fastback
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by Fastback » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:57 am

I am far from an expert on these matters and can only relate what I am being told and take it on trust. Certainly the galleries of these companies show automotive use for their products so it is reasonable to assume the material is fit for purpose. Other car maunfacturers use plastic parts for similar areas, so surely it must be possible.

Difficult as you say but perhaps if somebody lives closer to one of these companies than me they could take the part and have a chat in person. Probably easier than trying to describe it over the phone. The Plastic Works is in Worksop, any takers?
Mark
'96 820 Vitesse Lux Fastback, rolling resto
'99 825 Sterling Fastback, up and running :D
'96 825 SLi Fastback, just waiting. :|
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 10:24 am

I'm not an expert either Mark, i just know what i've picked up over the years. If you look at the products on other cars, generally you'll find they are thicker and have strengthening ribs built in rather than just being effectively a plain sheet with a fold or two along some of the edges. The difficulty will be finding a plastic to successfully recreate the scuttle without adding strengthening somewhere.

It may be possible to add some strengthening but not sure where. There is another possibility and that would be one of the high strength resins from thes people :

https://www.mbfg.co.uk/

They also sell silicon compound to make moulds with, how viable that would all be is another matter. If it did work, they also sell a range of pigments to add to the casting compound, with that the resin could be cast as satin black, chrome, gold, red or any other colour from their range.
It would entail making a mould, some sort of wodden framework with locating dowels in the right place for the scuttle, sealed with something like hardboard to contain the silicon to make the mould, remove the scuttle after the silicon has cured then have two halves of a mould, silicon filled in each half with a space in between that would be for the resin for the replacement scuttle.

I'll do some more research and see if i can come up with anything more useful on this idea, i also have my olde scuttle which might be handy for the sizes if nothing else.

I'll post back later with anything i find and maybe we can work through that and either reject it or perhaps sort out a trial run.
Cheers,
Dave


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Re: Brand new sills

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:03 pm

Just to throw it into the melting pot, this is the sort of idea i was on about :

https://www.mbfg.co.uk/category-186.html

Those are various sized kits of what i was on about, because of the sheer size of the mould needed due to the curves etc, i'd suggest needing a large amount of the silicone mould material. In terms of volume, the silicone will make about 0.8 x weight in cc so for an 800ml mould, you'd need 1kg of material.

Ball park guesstimate, the scuttle is about 1200mm long, about 150 wide (highest to lowest points) and has about 40mm of "lift" - i'd need to measure to be exact but i make that 120 x 15 x 4 = 7200cc/ml or 7.2L so would need about 9kg of the silicone mould. The 11kg kit of silicone on its own is £185 but i'm fairly sure that a better design of mould shape would reduce the volume needed to fill it.

I'll keep researching! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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CHR15E
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by CHR15E » Fri Mar 15, 2019 5:19 pm

Worksop is only 20 miles from me but I have no scuttle to take them to show what's needed. So not much use. :lol:

They really should have come up with a better design in the first place. Car design is very different now.
Chris
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Fastback
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by Fastback » Fri Mar 15, 2019 7:31 pm

OK, what about;

Benfleet,
Holbrook or
Leighton Buzzard?

Anybody near those WITH a scuttle panel? :D
Mark
'96 820 Vitesse Lux Fastback, rolling resto
'99 825 Sterling Fastback, up and running :D
'96 825 SLi Fastback, just waiting. :|
Previous:- 'J' 820Si Fastback, part Tickford
MG Maestro 2.0i (I loved that car, I did)

deano
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by deano » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:03 pm

Got a fella on the facebook group needs some sills for his fastback..

his name is David Grabham you can contact him at... dgrabham@hotmail.com
1993 Rover 827 SLI Fastback Mk2
1999 Rover 825 Sterling Saloon Mk2 (HGF)
------------------
Previously
1996 Rover 825 Sterling Coupe Mk2
1993 Rover 827 Sterling Saloon Mk2
1990 Rover 827 Sterling Saloon Mk1
1972 Rover P6 2000TC

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Fastback
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by Fastback » Thu Mar 21, 2019 9:18 pm

Ok, will do. Thanks.
Mark
'96 820 Vitesse Lux Fastback, rolling resto
'99 825 Sterling Fastback, up and running :D
'96 825 SLi Fastback, just waiting. :|
Previous:- 'J' 820Si Fastback, part Tickford
MG Maestro 2.0i (I loved that car, I did)

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Re: Brand new sills

Post by Fastback » Fri Mar 22, 2019 12:26 am

Just to let it be known to the wider public, the courier with whom we send the sills out, has changed their sizes (technically, apparantly, they should now be palletted! :shock: :roll: ). Sadly that has put the carriage up to £20. Even so, a pair delivered now comes in at just £80.

Talk about philanthropy...
Mark
'96 820 Vitesse Lux Fastback, rolling resto
'99 825 Sterling Fastback, up and running :D
'96 825 SLi Fastback, just waiting. :|
Previous:- 'J' 820Si Fastback, part Tickford
MG Maestro 2.0i (I loved that car, I did)

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Re: Brand new sills

Post by SJG » Fri Mar 22, 2019 3:46 am

I had same issues with sending the coupe sills. People thought I was talking rubbish and being awkward, I ended up saying collection only in the end.
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by Richard Moss » Sat Mar 23, 2019 9:00 am

Could I just take this opportunity to say thanks to everyone involved with getting these key components remade? The 800 is now a very rare car and your efforts are helping to keep them on the road :)
Out in the desert with a 1998 Grand Cherokee V8 and 1996 Grand Cherokee 4L. Back home: 1969 MGC GT

deano
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Re: Brand new sills

Post by deano » Mon Mar 25, 2019 8:05 pm

£80 still sounds good :)

I had similar issues when selling some spare scuttle panels a few years ago,
I couldnt find a resonable priced courier that would take over 5 foot long.
1993 Rover 827 SLI Fastback Mk2
1999 Rover 825 Sterling Saloon Mk2 (HGF)
------------------
Previously
1996 Rover 825 Sterling Coupe Mk2
1993 Rover 827 Sterling Saloon Mk2
1990 Rover 827 Sterling Saloon Mk1
1972 Rover P6 2000TC

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