SPORT AUTO N°305 June 1987 - Rover 825 Sterling VS Honda Legend

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SPORT AUTO N°305 June 1987 - Rover 825 Sterling VS Honda Legend

Post by Lodein » Mon Oct 05, 2020 5:01 pm

Please find an article from Sport Auto N°305 June 1987 with a match between the Rover 825 Sterling and the Honda Legend

Sorry it is in french :wink:

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Lodein
Rover 827 Sterling Option Pack 1989 (Non Cat / Manual)

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Re: SPORT AUTO N°305 June 1987 - Rover 825 Sterling VS Honda Legend

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Oct 05, 2020 9:51 pm

Looks good - can't read most of it due to my lack of French but the bits i do understand the Rover is faster, heavier and more economical than the Honda and yet they're mechanically identical in terms of engine and gearbox etc.

I
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: SPORT AUTO N°305 June 1987 - Rover 825 Sterling VS Honda Legend

Post by Lodein » Tue Oct 06, 2020 1:56 pm

The notable points of the article are:
- Journalists are once again disappointed with the performance of a Honda multivalve engine.
- They are amazed at the maximum speed difference in favor of the Rover while the Honda has the best SCX
- In performance, the top speed is considered disappointing, the acceleration is average for the category and above all the flexibility is catastrophic. This is the very big black point of these cars.
- The handling of the gearbox is impeccable*
- The road behavior is more bourgeois than sporty
- Big black point for the Honda which cannot have the ABS
- It is the interior style that will make the difference: English style warmth for the Rover against Germanic coldness for the Honda
And there is a paragraph on the English industry that I had better not translate !!!

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Re: SPORT AUTO N°305 June 1987 - Rover 825 Sterling VS Honda Legend

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:46 pm

All valid points there, the 2.7 addressed a lot of those criticisms, particularly the low down torque and flexibility.

This was achieved not only by the larger size but also the variable length induction system.

Honda weren't fond of the idea of using Bosch ABS whereas Rover used the Bosch ABS system, later replaced on the Mk2s with the Bosch ABS-2E system which featured self diagnostics. The "official" reset procedure was to switch the ignition on and off at least 20 times within a certain time frame (30s i believe) to clear the faults. However this often resulted in blown fuses and other problems caused by transient voltages. Much easier and safer to remove fuse "S" from the underbonnet fusebox for 30s which also resets the PGM-Fi and EAT memories in addition to the ABS memory.

In the meantime, Honda developed their own ALB (ABS to the rest of the planet) system which was fitted to later early Legends (KA1-4 era) while the KA5 3.2 Legend got an updated version in 1991/2 when that was launched.

Bear in mind the original Legend which the 800 was jointly developed with was destined for the USA as a new brand, Acura, which Honda intended to reserve for their prestige vehicles. This pre-dated Toyota and Lexus and Toyota only started creating the Lexus brand after they discovered Honda had launched the Acura Legend in the USA but the big point is that the suspension was set up for the USA market so was soft, wallowy and could make you feel seasick (mal de mer in case seasick doesn't translate) in the worst case.

Thankfully Rover sorted that out with larger, stiffer anti-roll (sway) bars and stiffer suspension on later models. If you can find a later 825D in a breakers yard or indeed an 820 turbo/Vitesse and get the 26mm front and 21mm rear Anti-roll bars, they will transform your handling. Make sure you get the D bushes too as they aren't always available!

There is a rumour that the Honda boss was furious when he saw the interior of the 800 with the "wrap around" dashboard that flowed into the doors and wanted to know why his designers hadn't done similar with the Legend. It's a small detail but an important one.

As for British industry, there was a lot that was to be desired about the buld quality in the early to mid 1980s, sadly a leftover from the strikes of the early 70s and a "don't care attitude" which i firmly believe was due to poor management. They were too fond of putting Lord This-or-that in charge of BL and later ARG then Rover Group and expecting results. Sadly this wasn't the case and when the Government stepped in and bought a controlling share in BL and then sold it to British Aerospace (then part owned by a French company, can't think of the name now) it was the penultimate nail in the coffin - the final nail was the aggressive buyout by BMW in 1996 which is why Honda refused to supply any more 2.7 V6 engines to Rover (Rover and Honda had reciprocal 22% stakes in the other, part of the 1981 Anchorage Agreement i believe) so BMWs aggressive takeover basically said to Honda "get lost" but in much stronger terms.
That's why the KV6 ws hurriedly put into production for the V6 800 models and wasn't ready at the time.

Too many bad decisions over too many years! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: SPORT AUTO N°305 June 1987 - Rover 825 Sterling VS Honda Legend

Post by Lodein » Tue Oct 06, 2020 5:22 pm

Thank you Scoobyh123 for your informations
scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:46 pm
All valid points there, the 2.7 addressed a lot of those criticisms, particularly the low down torque and flexibility.

This was achieved not only by the larger size but also the variable length induction system.
Exactly and that's why I have a 2.7 l. Clearly if the car had been a 2.5l, I'm not sure I would have bought it
scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:46 pm
Honda weren't fond of the idea of using Bosch ABS whereas Rover used the Bosch ABS system, later replaced on the Mk2s with the Bosch ABS-2E system which featured self diagnostics. The "official" reset procedure was to switch the ignition on and off at least 20 times within a certain time frame (30s i believe) to clear the faults. However this often resulted in blown fuses and other problems caused by transient voltages. Much easier and safer to remove fuse "S" from the underbonnet fusebox for 30s which also resets the PGM-Fi and EAT memories in addition to the ABS memory.

In the meantime, Honda developed their own ALB (ABS to the rest of the planet) system which was fitted to later early Legends (KA1-4 era) while the KA5 3.2 Legend got an updated version in 1991/2 when that was launched.
It is what they said in the article
scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:46 pm
Bear in mind the original Legend which the 800 was jointly developed with was destined for the USA as a new brand, Acura, which Honda intended to reserve for their prestige vehicles. This pre-dated Toyota and Lexus and Toyota only started creating the Lexus brand after they discovered Honda had launched the Acura Legend in the USA but the big point is that the suspension was set up for the USA market so was soft, wallowy and could make you feel seasick (mal de mer in case seasick doesn't translate) in the worst case.

Thankfully Rover sorted that out with larger, stiffer anti-roll (sway) bars and stiffer suspension on later models. If you can find a later 825D in a breakers yard or indeed an 820 turbo/Vitesse and get the 26mm front and 21mm rear Anti-roll bars, they will transform your handling. Make sure you get the D bushes too as they aren't always available!
This information is interesting. But for the road behavior it is the judgement of the journalist, and me I like my Rover like this, I am now more Bourgeois than Sporty !!!
scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 2:46 pm

As for British industry, there was a lot that was to be desired about the buld quality in the early to mid 1980s, sadly a leftover from the strikes of the early 70s and a "don't care attitude" which i firmly believe was due to poor management. They were too fond of putting Lord This-or-that in charge of BL and later ARG then Rover Group and expecting results. Sadly this wasn't the case and when the Government stepped in and bought a controlling share in BL and then sold it to British Aerospace (then part owned by a French company, can't think of the name now) it was the penultimate nail in the coffin - the final nail was the aggressive buyout by BMW in 1996 which is why Honda refused to supply any more 2.7 V6 engines to Rover (Rover and Honda had reciprocal 22% stakes in the other, part of the 1981 Anchorage Agreement i believe) so BMWs aggressive takeover basically said to Honda "get lost" but in much stronger terms.
That's why the KV6 ws hurriedly put into production for the V6 800 models and wasn't ready at the time.

Too many bad decisions over too many years! :wink: :D
When I worked for PSA Peugeot Citroën, I went twice in the PSA English plant at Ryton, and clearly it was the worst paint plant in the group (I worked in paint plant at his time) For information, the best was Vigo in Spain.
What thay said in the article is that Honda put some controles for the Honda Legend made in England, to be sure that the quality will be there, and they said that is not glorious for the british industry.

I wanted to said but I forgot, that I am not agree with what they said about the handling of the gearbox (It is why there were an *) but I will develop this after in the post of my Rover

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Re: SPORT AUTO N°305 June 1987 - Rover 825 Sterling VS Honda Legend

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:26 pm

That doesn't surprise me one little bit about Ryton being the worst for paint in the group, it wasn't much good at paint even when it was the HIllman factory.

When firstly Chrysler (Europe) inherited it and then PSA Group, they inherited a very disenchanted workforce. Granted some members would have gone through "natural wasteage" but for the most part, PSA would have got most of Hillmans dodgy painters.

Sorry for repeating what you'd read in the article about the ABS systems, my French is very minimal and i can just about translate the basic words such bonjour, le soleil (not that we have much of that at the moment) and so on. Trying to translate anything more involved and i might as well be from a different planet.

There is a bonus to do with upgrading the anti-roll bars even on standard suspension. They don't alter the spring rates so you still get a soft, compliant "Bourgoise" ride but if you need to press on through the corners, you can and surprise a lot of more exotic cars too!

Not sure exactly what you mean on the gearbox, it's a long time since i had a manual 800 and all my 827s have been auto.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

User avatar
Lodein
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Posts: 448
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Location: Angoulême / France
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Re: SPORT AUTO N°305 June 1987 - Rover 825 Sterling VS Honda Legend

Post by Lodein » Wed Oct 07, 2020 5:19 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:26 pm
Sorry for repeating what you'd read in the article about the ABS systems, my French is very minimal and i can just about translate the basic words such bonjour, le soleil (not that we have much of that at the moment) and so on. Trying to translate anything more involved and i might as well be from a different planet.
It is not a problem and you gave more details than the article.
scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:26 pm
There is a bonus to do with upgrading the anti-roll bars even on standard suspension. They don't alter the spring rates so you still get a soft, compliant "Bourgoise" ride but if you need to press on through the corners, you can and surprise a lot of more exotic cars too!
So I note this, an when I 'll have time I'll look at this modification
scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Oct 06, 2020 6:26 pm
Not sure exactly what you mean on the gearbox, it's a long time since i had a manual 800 and all my 827s have been auto.
In they article they love the handling of the gearbox, but not me, I 'll develop on the post of my car

Lodein
Rover 827 Sterling Option Pack 1989 (Non Cat / Manual)

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