Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Non-Rover chat and tech stuff

Moderators: guru, SJG

zcar12
Regular Visitor
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by zcar12 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 7:53 am

Dave, thanks for the link to the CANbus system. I think you are on the right track there. I believe the CANbus system works by biasing a polarity, taking one high or low. It also explains why the diagram shows so many resistors. I cut the plastic top off the old motor and it looked to me very much like a miniature AC motor. I dont remember seeing a DC motor that looked like that.

Yesterday, I was able to prise out the button on the end of the wiper stalk and bridge the contacts. No result at all so it is most likely duff. The wiper relay also checked out good, as did every fuse that I pulled. As long as I can get the front washers operational again, I will leave things as they are.

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 12149
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Jul 27, 2017 10:02 am

I reckon your best bet is to use the push button idea Nick.

CANbus is a wonderful thing - when it works!
The way i've always understood that it works is it transmits a binary code super-imposed on the normal DC power lines and only the correct component responds to this code. While that code is being transmitted, all other devices continue as they were until their unique code is once again transmitted.
The transmission of the code and the devices response to it is so fast, most items around the car seem to operate instantaneously but there is probably a delay of a few milliseconds on each - not that we'd notice that of course! It's all happening so fast that no human eye could see it.

I could be completely wrong or only halfway along the right lines but that's how it was explained to me. Apparently the resistors are to "terminate" a "leg" of the system, if the controller doesn't find that resistance on the end of the leg it throws a fault up.
What was so bad about getting out of the car to check the bulbs worked????? :shock: :roll: :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

zcar12
Regular Visitor
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by zcar12 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 12:07 pm

I am still persevering, hoping to get my washers working.

I got a spare wiper stalk from a breaker who took his time sending it. It arrived this morning so I fitted it. Still no washers!

The Haynes manual; says that the earth point E3 is to be found on the "LH the rear wing". How should I understand this?. I have looked on the front wing and cant find an earth point there. Does this sentence mean that the earth point is to be found at the rear of the car on an estate?. How would you interpret this sentence?

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 12149
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Aug 08, 2017 10:34 pm

I'd interpret it as some kind of typo Nick - might be wrong but i've found several over the years in the Haynes Books of Fantasy and Illusion!

What happens if you run a separate earth from the washer pimp to battery earth?
Does it work then?

If so then i'd agree that it is an earth problem or tpossibly wiring between the pump and switch.

Just realised they've drawn the switch as two separate parts on the diagram (i have a word for manufacturers that do that without making it clear, which they haven't! :evil: ) and also that the pump appears to be earth switched - shades of Mazda 6 there! Put another way, earth switching is quite common on Japanese vehicles. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

zcar12
Regular Visitor
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by zcar12 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 9:23 am

Dave, you mention the Mazda 6. The engine in my car was a Mazda design, that Ford took over. The engine is a real beauty. The pump can spin in either direction so the earths must be switched, maybe by the GEM module. A direct connection to the battery sees the pump spin. But if it is to spin in either direction, it cannot have a direct (permanent) connection to the chassis rail. I hope I have said that correctly!

I have never owned a Japanese car so I cant comment on earth switching, as I never came across the concept before now. I did wonder why the Haynes diagram shows things quite the way it does. I have managed to track down an earth diagram. The earths under the hood are all done now. I hope to be able to get out there today to do the inside ones, that is if it stops raining!.
Image

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 12149
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:18 am

Looking again at the diagram NIck, the polarity reversal for the pump is done in the wash/wipe switch itself! :shock: Item 10, bottom right hand corner of the diagram. If you look at pin 6 on the other half of the washer switch in the diagram (at the top), the feed comes from fuse #94, into the switch and then there's a small arrow head in the switch immediately under the "W" of "switch" where someone has added "WASH/WIPE SWITCH" above the diagram. Now look at the other part of the switch (bottom right hand) and you will see the other arrow head.

If you now look more closely at the bottom right hand bit of the switch, you'll see that only two electrical parts of it are mechanically linked, the third part (on the left in the switch diagram) isn't mechanically linked, therefore operates independently. That means with one switch and one pump, the pump can run in either direction according to the switch position.

That means if the rear washers work, then electrically everything is ok except possibly the switch if it won't work on the front washers. That will narrow it down to one contact in the switch but finding it would be tricky!

There should be +12v on BOTH terminals of the pump with the switch in the "rest" position. In the position where terminal 4 on the switch goes to earth, this takes terminal 1 on the pump to earth. As the other pump terminal (2) is held at +12V the pump will now run one way.
When the switch is released, both pump terminals revert to +12v so it will stop.

When the switch is operated the other way, terminal 2 on the switch is connected to earth which in turn connects pump terminal 2 to earth. As terminal 1 on the pump is still at +12v, the pump runs the opposite way to what it did in the previous example.

Whether the front washer operation puts an earth on terminal 1 or 2 of the pump i'm not sure. I wish i'd spotted the arrangement sooner, it might have saved you a lot of grief! :oops: In my defence, i did say from the off it was a terrible diagram! :shock: :wink: :P

Not sure if this new information will put you any further forward or just brings you a new (even smellier) kettle of fish.

Something in the back of my mind is saying you had a blown fuse at one point, can you remind me if that's right or have i imagined it?

As for the earth switched thing, the original Mondeo was based on the Mazda 6 (back in 1994 i think) as Ford owned a large chunk of Mazda-Pie at the time. Ford also had their sticky fingers in the Jaguar Pie and so was the X-Type born. I'm not 100% certain but fairly sure the Jag shares a similar electrical system so that probably has the same thing!
Also, if you have a look at the headlight circuit for the 800, you'll find that is earth-switched as well. Don't forget the 800 was originally a collaboration with Honda, especially the V6 versions - more Japanese auto-electrickery! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

zcar12
Regular Visitor
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by zcar12 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 12:01 pm

Dave, I am extremely grateful for your last post, I could never have figured out the operation of the pump system on my own.. I have printed out what you have written and will go through it all today, with the diagram. Its still raining here so looks like not much will be done on the car today. Global warming? Pah! More like global cooling. Hope Chris had a great holiday in Devon, despite weather.

Interesting what you say about Ford and Mazda. I read that Ford sold the Mazda stake in 2008 in order not to need a government bailout. I still remember being at work in 1989? and being told that Ford was bidding to take over Jaguar. I could not believe it, especially the, to me, astronomical sum involved! Big egos involved there and much money made by big banks. The more things change, the more they stay the same.

Blown fuse? No, I think you are remembering that I pulled the fuse that controls the radio by mistake and lost the code. Was taped to the sun visor and proved to be my birthday numbers.

The wiper stalk, where the pins are found, has a series of numbers 1 through 10. I can relate these to the diagram and so was able to test the operation of the wiper stalk. My old switch was slightly sticky with the wash/wipe button. but worked OK. So I am comfortable that the switch is not the problem.

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 12149
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 2:39 pm

Global drowning more like Nick! You're welcome on the diagram, took me quite a while to get "into it" as it were but the bottom line is if the rear washers work then it has to be either the switch or a blockage somewhere.

I still can't work out why Ford (and/or Mazda) didn't go for the simple option of two pumps and a separate switch element inside the stalk switch. Even a separate pushbutton switch for the rear wash/wipe like the 800 has would be preferable to what has been done there!
I have separate pumps on the Volvo and if i pull the stalk towards the steering wheel that operates the front washers (and wipers) and i can still (just!) push the button on the end of the stalk for rear wash/wipe. Admittedly that will empty the reservoir extremely quickly but at least i'll have simultaneously clean front, rear and headlamp glass!

I think it was 96 when Ford bought Jaguar outright but had their fingers in the corporate pie of the Big Cat from about 89/90, hence the first Mazda Xedos/Mazda 6 models, Jag X-Types and Mondeos being very similar. Ford were also bidding on Land Rover and Volvo at the time, if memory serves correctly Land Rover was sold with the rest of Rover Group to the Germans and Ford snaffled Jaguar and Volvo to continue building their PAG - Prestige Automotive Group.

I knew there was something about a fuse, i'd just forgotten what it was!

It sounds as if you're chasing a blockage somewhere which is odd as unless i'm mistaken, you've managed to get the front washers to work by bridging things out here and there?
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

zcar12
Regular Visitor
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by zcar12 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 4:16 pm

During a break in the rain today, I was able to locate the two earth points on the nearside inside the car and clean them. E3and E5. It was not that!

Assuming better weather tomorrow, my plan is to check for +12 volts on both pump wires, where they connect to the pump. I am wondering if I pulled a little too hard on the pump wires when disconnecting things as the loom was very short indeed, as were the water pipes.

If things still do not work and failing other ideas, I will fit a DPDT momentary switch to the dash (same as a rocker window switch) and wire things accordingly, powered via a mini piggy back connector to the under dash fuse box. (Great idea Dave, thanks) That should give me two pump directions again and front and rear wash wipe..

What you pointed out in your last post but one had completely escaped my notice re 10 on the diagram.

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 12149
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:57 pm

As i said in that post Nick, i hadn't noticed it either! :oops:

Good thinking about the DPDT switch, the only thing is if that works then it's either the switch that's in there already causing the problem or the wiring to it. If the rear washers work then the wiring is proven so it leaves the switch - or a blockage.

The only thing you could possibly try is reversing the terminals on the pump and operating the rear washer to see if the front washer works - the wipe facility won't work on the front while doing this obviously. If the front washers then work it's got to be the switch.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

zcar12
Regular Visitor
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by zcar12 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 2:40 pm

Thank you Dave, I am happy to report that normal service has been resumed. Everything is working again as it should. The problem turned out to be that the wiring from the switch to the pump had been damaged. Probing upstream showed + 12 volts and nothing downstream of the damage. The damage looked like someone had hit the wires with a hammer and flattened them or maybe somehow, they had become pinched.

I cut out a length either side of the damage and spliced in two new wires and shrink wrapped the joins. As I had cleaned the old filter which was almost choked with blue screen-wash crystals, the front washers are now very powerful and really blast the screen. Back one works as well.

Thank you Dave, for holding my hand and guiding me through this process. I got there in the end!

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 12149
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Aug 10, 2017 4:13 pm

You're very welcome Nick - glad you got it all sorted!

A blockage and a wiring problem in the end! Nasty! :shock: :evil: :shock:

Adding a pint of white vingear to the washer bottle when it's near empty then topping up with water every once in a while helps keep the formation of those crystals and limescale in general down as well - it's 50p well spent as preventive maintenance. The only downside is the whiff of vinegar while it's in there! Does shift a lot of gunge though! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

zcar12
Regular Visitor
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by zcar12 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 11:14 am

This morning, I had an FTP. Usually the car will start first turn on the key, but this morning was different. Turned the key, engine fired, released the key and immediate stop. Second try was the same, it fired then stopped. Third try, the engine just turns over and no hint that it will fire, it is dead. I suspect fuel pump failure.

I have checked all the under bonnet fuses and all seem good. Plus the fuel pump relay. And wouldn't you know it, my Haynes manual is nowhere to be found. Buggeration!

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 12149
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by scoobyh123 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 12:17 pm

When did you last use it Nick?

First thing i'd do is get a can of Ezi-Start and give it a couple of squirts to see if it fires on that. If so then it's almost certainly fuel related. Or go straight to this idea :

Is there an inertia switch on the Mondeo? If so it could have tripped. Just did a search and found this online :

http://www.answers.com/Q/Where_can_I_fi ... 93#slide=1

front left hand foot well. up under the glove box (right hand drive) to the left there is a little hole 25m diamter approx. has button in it facing upwards. if button is up cutt off has been tripped. if down still ok. can press it down again if tripped. check for fuel leaks though. have ignition off when resetting, turn on and check for leaks.

That's the answer put into readable terms! If yours hasn't tripped, try tapping the switch or at least the area nearby to get it to trip (may have to resort to a mallet or block of wood) with the ignition off. You should hear it trip. Once tripped, reset it and then try starting.

If they're anything like the inertia switches on the 800s, it could well have gone into what i call a "third state". Basically because the contacts within the switch haven't moved for decades, they accumulated dirt and oxidisation and eventually don't pass enough current for the fuel pump. On the 800s, the switch also feeds the CCU and when disconnected in an accident is meant to trigger the central locking to unlock via the CCU. When they go into the third state, they still pass enough current to keep the CCU happy which is a red herring for diagnosis.

Could be worth a try! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

zcar12
Regular Visitor
Posts: 495
Joined: Mon Apr 04, 2016 2:47 pm
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Ford Mondeo 2.0 Litre Auto.

Post by zcar12 » Sat Oct 28, 2017 1:15 pm

Thank you Dave. Located the cut off switch right where you said it would be, it had not tripped. Never knew it existed so thanks for that.

At the pump end there are 2 fat wires and 2 thin wires. I have been told that the fat wires should show voltage for three seconds when ignition position 2 is selected. I have nothing, also when cranking so no power getting to the pump. Now need to check the under dash fuses.

Post Reply
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests