Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

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scoobyh123
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:55 am

Charles827si wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:55 am
This is the best price I've seen for the Bosch. I understand the size is 100.

My brain is abit frazzled after searching the net for the last 2 hours with regards to batteries. :|

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Try this for price Charles :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/E-U-New-Genu ... 1823658483

Four year guarantee, free delivery and under £46 - given that it's hard work getting them to admit to a warranty claim, i know which i'd choose. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:05 am

That's an excellent price considering the higher 78ah output.
I guess whatever the amp rating, the alternater will utilize a set amount of current before it shuts on/off ?
There seems to be many different and conflicting theorys about the workings of alternators floating around the internet.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
Once owned a 93 827 Coupe (L132EUK manual) and a 91 fastback
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:17 am

Charles827si wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:05 am
That's an excellent price considering the higher 78ah output.
I guess whatever the amp rating, the alternater will utilize a set amount of current before it shuts on/off ?
There seems to be many different and conflicting theorys about the workings of alternators floating around the internet.
I'm not being funny Charles but simply from the words you've used there, i can tell you're seriously confused about what an alternator is and how it works.

If you explain what your ideas are of an alternator and how it works, i'll put something together to explain it and build on whatever knowledge you've got and hopefully that will make things clearer for you. It will take a little while but hopefully by this evening i should have something useful for you. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:26 am

I just re-read what I typed on that subject of alternators and I see now I came across rather senselessly..

Just by putting into Google what an alternator does, this is the search result;

- An automotive charging system is made up of three major components: the battery, the voltage regulator and an alternator. The alternator works with the battery to generate power for the electrical components of a vehicle, like the interior and exterior lights, and the instrument panel.

So basicly this suggests how I expect the alternator and charging system to work..even if my brain and cognition does not always work seamlessly..
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
Once owned a 93 827 Coupe (L132EUK manual) and a 91 fastback
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 3:23 pm

Sadly you're no further forward with Googles "explanation" Charles! It only tells you what you already knew!

Think of the alternator as a battery charger, powered by the engine turning. A bit like an overgrown dynamo which in some ways it is but a dynamo puts out dc current (the same as a battery) but is nowhere near as efficient as an alternator.

The alternator on the other hand puts out ac (alternating) current so needs to be rectified which is done inside the alternator to give a dc output. Because it is much more efficient than a dynamo, it gives a higher output at idle than a dynamo.

Both need some sort of voltage regulator to prevent overcharging (and undercharging) which until relatively recently, were set to 14.4V cold, 14.0V hot. Alternators generally have the voltage regulator built in for many reasons but to know why those figures are arrived at, you need to know a little about the battery itself.

The humble 12V battery is in fact a 13.2V battery, made up of 6 x 2.2V cells. Each cell needs a minimum of 0.1V more than its voltage to charge, hence the 13.8V minimum voltage needed to charge a battery.
When a car has just been started, the regulator will be cold and the battery will need more charge put in to recover more quickly. That's why a cold regulator gives 14.4V output, 0.2V per cell more than normal. This allows the alternator to put more current into the battery because the battery has a certain internal resistance.

From Ohms Law, resistance x current = voltage and that formula can be transposed whichever way you like. For example, a 12V bulb that takes 10A will have a resistance of 1.2 Ohms. You can rework this example so if a battery is being charged at 14.4V @ 40A, the resistance will be 0.36 Ohms. Because the voltage regulator senses the battery voltage either with a thin wire from the battery +ve terminal (battery sensed) or from taking a feed from the alternator output terminal (machine sensed), it can monitor the voltage and regulate the rotor current in the alternator.

The rotor generates a magnetic field which spins inside the stator (the stator is the middle part of the alternator, often "red-lead" colour or sometimes black and has the windings that produce the output current) and depending how much power is fed into the rotor, alters the output of the stator.

If the battery is up to voltage, very little power is fed into the rotor so the alternator doesn't put very much out in the way of current. If the battery voltage is low, it feeds more power into the rotor which in turn generates more power in the stator.

As you can see, the voltage regulator monitors the battery voltage and alters the alternator output to suit. Assuming that the belt is tight, it can generate 14V x 70A = 980W of power which is about 1 1/3 horsepower. That means if the belt is going to slip because it's loose, it will do it when it's cold and most load is on the alternator but it can compromise the output of the alternator too.

Something to bear in mind is that with the normal lead-acid battery, the plates inside are covered in lead-antimony to help prevent sulphation and self-discharge.
In a calcium battery, the plates are covered in silver-calcium for the same reason, it's still a lead-acid battery though so the principles hold true with minor adjustments.

The silver-calcium increases the voltage at which it starts charging by an extra 0.1V approximately so a calcium battery needs 14.7V just to start charging. The rest is similar to the normal lead-acid battery but about 0.6-0.7V higher for charging purposes.

That's why i was asking earlier if your battery was a calcium one. If it's fully charged to start with and the car is in fairly regular use, it will start off ok but over a period of time, the overall state of charge will drop. Charging overnight with an external charger usually revives it and it will function normally again for a while, at least until the overall state of charge drops again.

Note that both types of battery share the common voltage versus state of charge :

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Couple of charts there for you, you'll see in the second one that it mentions SG (Specific Gravity) which can be checked with a hydrometer. You know the "Magic Eye" on some batteries? Green when it's charged, yellow when it's flat but capable of being jump started and then usually black after that? It's a simple hydrometer inside the battery.

Hopefully that gives you a bit more of an insight than Goggle did, feel free to ask if there's something i've missed or you don't get. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:25 pm

Yes Dave, there is alot more to what I already put earlier. It's a complex science for me and one which I didnt really have time to get into.
I remember ohms law as an engineering student but I never since put that to good use.
Thanks for taking the time to fully write about this subject !

Anyway, I'm going to reconnect the battery now and I promise I'll check the type of battery and the make. :D
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
Once owned a 93 827 Coupe (L132EUK manual) and a 91 fastback
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 7:57 pm

You're welcome Charles - really only the tip of the iceberg but enough to explain it and give an understanding of what's going on. I've had many headaches over the years since (and at!) Tech College trying to work out this that and everything else. Most of the stuff about the calcium batteries is fairly fresh in the brain cell because i researched it recently to find out why i kept getting flat batteries on the Sterling for no apparent reason! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:09 pm

Image

Image

There are two sticky labels on the battery.
One that says 'Trade Club Battery'

The sticker on the top end reads the technical points.

Nowhere that I can see does it read calcium or lead types.
The part number gives no clue either.

It says part number 100. Maybe the part number also refers to the size dimensions of the battery as discussed already.
I should check the website for this.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
Once owned a 93 827 Coupe (L132EUK manual) and a 91 fastback
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:44 pm

All the information on the top sticker refers to the battery type (100) and the DIN and ETN numbers are just different ways of referring to it.

The "tradeclub.co.uk" is the Vauxhall Trade Club : https://tradeclub.co.uk/Home

I'd be fairly confident in suggesting it's a calcium battery, i'm not sure when the Vauxhall Trade Club started but the 100 designation is fairly recent (this millennium anyway) all of which suggests it's a calcium.

This is how i boosted the alternator output voltage on mine :

Image
Straight wire link to revert to "normal" if neeeded. Also diode prepared ready for another connector to boost.

Image
Diode fitted in connector with wire link in background.

Image
Heatshrink sleeving to protect diode

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Alternator control plug removed, yellow/blue wire cut ready for socket to be fitted

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Socket fitted with diode plug inserted

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All back together and ready for the charged battery to be refitted

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New battery going on, note jump pack connected to the fusebox to preserve radio, window etc memories

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Engine running showing improved alternator output voltage and no problems since unless i haven't used it for 2 months!

As you can see, fairly easy to do as long as you have crimping pliers for "W" crimps.

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

Image

The test rig i made and used before fitting the voltage boost diode in the first group of pics. This was made using 4 smaller diodes than the final option of one single diode just to prove the point and to be honest, would have worked as a permanent solution but i wanted it neater.

The colours don't match in the plug as it's from a Honda Accord but it's the same plug. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:19 pm

Interesting write up of this mod Dave.
Would it be possible to change the alternator to a different specification to get similar results that you've got since this mod?
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
Once owned a 93 827 Coupe (L132EUK manual) and a 91 fastback
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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scoobyh123
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:33 pm

Charles827si wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:19 pm
Interesting write up of this mod Dave.
Would it be possible to change the alternator to a different specification to get similar results that you've got since this mod?
If only! The alternator fitted to the 825/827 is only found on one other vehicle in this country, the Honda Legend 2.5/2.7 and just for fun, the brackets (end casings) are unique to the alternator. :roll: :cry:

There is one more vehicle stateside that has the same alternator, the 1993-98 Accord Coupe V6 2.7 - think Rover 600 Coupe with a 2.7 under the bonnet. Yeah, we didn't get them. :cry:

Even the closest relative in terms of size, the 3.0 V6 C30 engine as used in the original NSX used a different alternator, similar to the one used on the C32 3.2 powered second gen Legends, the 3.5 C35 powered Legends had a different (beefier and bigger) alternator again and the new KB1 3.5 Legends from about 2005 used the J35 engine instead so another different alternator.

There is an alternator that's rumoured to fit the Honda Accord/Rover 620 and the 827 with a 14V @ 90A output but, guess what, it won't fit the 827 engine. I have one and the brackets are different. I was going to transfer the innards, ended up with a box of useless bits. I still have another complete one, must exhume it and put it on ebay.

Even if it had fitted, the voltage is still too low by 0.6~0.7V so would still need the diode mod added. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Fri Jul 12, 2019 5:30 am

Since I took the battery charger off two days ago, (around 95% full charge) the car does not crank any better from cold. However its still fine after a run.
This morning, ive put the charger back on at work.
As far as I can tell, the needle has dropped back to roughly the same position as the first time I put the charger on.
I'm going to dig out a multitester and test the battery.
I very much doubt this is a starter motor issue or alternator one judging by the characteristics Ive experienced.

Image
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
Once owned a 93 827 Coupe (L132EUK manual) and a 91 fastback
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

User avatar
scoobyh123
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Posts: 9701
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri Jul 12, 2019 8:45 am

Have you got a battery hydrometer Charles? You can pick them up for a few quid on fleabay or most auto factors.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Battery-Hydr ... 2939764209

Once charged, if you unscrew each cell cap in turn on the battery and check the SG in each and record it. You're looking more for anomalies than anything else but if you check my previous chart with the SG for charged etc by cross-checking with a voltmeter you should see if things don't add up. Don't use either instrument until the battery has been left to settle for at least half hour after coming off charge.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Charles827si
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:15 pm

Apologies Dave for the late reply.
I meant to buy a battery hydrometer today but I didnt get time.

What I have done is fitted a brand new (qa tested) Varta Silver Battery (77AH) from a local motor factor. £85.50.. very good price.

However while the car seems happier to start, its not been the case everytime.

I feel the problems are worse than my initial thoughts.
Could be looking at either timing issue (Ive suspected before) or (and) head gasket.
Before I had the head replaced I was aware that I had bad compression on one rear bank cylinder.
Maybe my problems are a combination of these three things and the battery was not the problem.

However that being said about the bad cylinder, the cranking would be taking more juice from the battery to crank start resulting in the battery life span reducing.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
Once owned a 93 827 Coupe (L132EUK manual) and a 91 fastback
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

User avatar
scoobyh123
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Jul 15, 2019 8:30 pm

When you start the car Charles, if you turn the key to position 2 (igniton and other warning lights, no starter action yet), you should see the "PGM-Fi" warning light illuminate for a few seconds and hear the fuel pump hum at the same time.

Do you wait for the PGM-Fi light to go out before turning to position 3 (Start) or do you just turn the key straight to position 3 as soon as you get in?

Have you added any ATF to the engine oil at any time?

Also, when did you last check the HT leads, dizzy cap and rotor arm?
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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