Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

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Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Nov 04, 2019 10:01 am

That's a shame Phil, Photobucket has a lot to answer for, caused all kinds of headaches to eople the world over simply through greed. :x :evil: :x

No hurry though, before i get anywhere near even thinking of adding a Tor-Sen to my auto-box i need to find a new pair of front shocks. In fact, thinking about it, they may even cure the wheelspin i'm trying to cure with a Tor-Sen as it never used to wheelspin when the shocks were ok - maybe a slight scrabble for grip/chirp from the front tyres but not the sort of relentless wheelspin i've had lately! :shock: :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by 820Vitesse » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:07 pm

Overdue update time, I have been gathering pictures but not had a chance to post so hope to get back up to date over the next few days.
At the moment the car is on stands with many parts being removed, refitted and modified

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Slow progress with the gearboxes.
To get the straight cut gearset and large final drive from the Montego PG1 casing into the 220 casing I needed to remove metal from at least 2 places for clearance , with that and the ratios being so unsuitable for this car I went to plan B, fit the quaife ATB diff to a Rover 220 Coupe turbo gearset.
So cleaned, checked and reassembled the 220 gears

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and fitted the 220 final drive to the Montego Quaife diff

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To set the diff bearings clearance, this is normally done with different thickness circlips.
This Quaife diff is different it uses the Rover circlips plus large shims behind the bearings.
I could not get anywhere near the correct settings with the available circlips

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So had a custom titanium shim made to replace one of the quaife shims, with that done and clearance correct I was nearly there.

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So to the speedo drive, I hadnt even thought about this till now, normally a quick swap to the right combination for wheel size and model, not this box, I cannot fit the parts needed to run the 820 transducer for the electronic speedometer.

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With no speedometer or a lot of work and expense to modify the diff I abandoned that idea too
So to plan c, remove the Rover Torsen LSD in the gearbox currently fitted to the car, fit that to the Rover 220 Coupe turbo gearset and casing where it came from originally about 15 years ago and see how those ratios work in the 820 with its larger wheels and tyres.

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Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:44 pm

Crikey Jim, i know it was Boxing Day recently but that's a bit extreme! :P

Not quite sure on the speedo drive gear - what exactly is the problem?
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by 820Vitesse » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:46 pm

The gearbox I removed from the car was built for Ten of the best top speed runs, it has a Vitesse final drive and 800 diesel 5th, I was aiming for 160 to 170 mph but on the day my modified Rover ECU at that time with adjustable boost cut decided to have a mind of its own and put pay to that attempt.
This limited slip diff is a standard Rover Torsen Type A the earlier and supposedly not so strong version but it has held up well.

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This is back together now and partially fitted to the car.

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I couldnt put the oily starter back on the clean box, so found an old one to strip for refurb (in case I mess up the good one)

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The standard gear box end mount is not very substantial, more of a damper I suppose.

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so I plan to make something more solid to match the engine mount and engine tie bar

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Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by 820Vitesse » Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:52 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Mon Jan 06, 2020 9:44 pm
Crikey Jim, i know it was Boxing Day recently but that's a bit extreme! :P

Not quite sure on the speedo drive gear - what exactly is the problem?
Haha very good.
The speedo gear on the Quaife diff does not match any of the 800 or 200 drives, it has a pressed on metal gear rather than the plastic gears used in everthing I have and will not mesh properly. I might come back to it later but need to get a gearbox back in the car.
Last edited by 820Vitesse on Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:25 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by 820Vitesse » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:24 pm

I have been putting off removing the petrol tank for years, it is full of crap and well overdue a good clean or replacement. So made a start this week, I have been very lucky with corrosion on this car and up till last year I thought there was none despite it being a 25 year old Rover.
I had no idea the filler neck had any corrosion until I removed it

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but close up its pretty bad once I started digging at the flakey paint and underseal

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The top triangular flange I might try to replace as long as the rest is recoverable.

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Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Jan 06, 2020 10:47 pm

Quick and easy test Jim, fit the cap to the filler neck, turn it upside down and fill it with water to see where it leaks from. Looking at the filler neck, i think you've got a watering can there! :shock:
Strange about that speedo drive gear, is the metal one a press/interference fit or has it been made an integral part?
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by 820Vitesse » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:03 am

It didnt leak but after a good clean it looks like it will or will be very thin in places, we will see, only just started on this.

The speedo gear is metal and pressed on, different dimension fitting to the usual set up, the Montego casing has the speedo drive hole blanked off, it wasnt used. I will look at it again but not for a while unless the new fitted gearbox has to come out again.

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:27 am

Wow, great update like always! Love the quality of your work and 820 Vitty! :)
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 11:45 am

820Vitesse wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:03 am
It didnt leak but after a good clean it looks like it will or will be very thin in places, we will see, only just started on this.

The speedo gear is metal and pressed on, different dimension fitting to the usual set up, the Montego casing has the speedo drive hole blanked off, it wasnt used. I will look at it again but not for a while unless the new fitted gearbox has to come out again.
I'd suggest using electrolytic derusting then Jim, it will help restore the structure of the original filler neck as not only does it convert the rust back to good metal, it also adds a very thin plating of good metal on the work-piece.
Almost free but time consuming, if you put the filler neck to one side in the electro-bath you can leave it for a few days to do its stuff and then deal with what comes out.

Fairly sure you're familiar with electrolyitic derusting but if not, i'll explain it for you.

As for the speedo drive, is the blank removable on the Montego box? If so, perhaps get a Montego driven gear and couple it to the Rover sensor - not ideal but certainly within your skill set! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by 820Vitesse » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:14 pm

Thanks Marc, I have 6 different jobs going on with the Vitesse at the moment, gearbox, gearbox mount upgrade, starter motor and brackets clean and paint, steering wheel and horn, modifying rear suspension top mounts to add camber adjustment, fuel filler neck repair and fuel tank to remove and clean I am going from one to the other while waiting for parts and finding time to get out there.
Once those jobs are done I have my eye on a nice stainless twin outlet rear silencer from the USA as a late Christmas present.

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by 820Vitesse » Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:26 pm

Dave I suspect it is beyond repair but will give it a clean with scraper and wire brush first, if it survives that and looks savable then I may well be tapping your brain for the electrolyitic derusting info, otherwise and most likely I will have a go at making a replacement.

The blank is removable from the Montego box and I looked at a Montego drive but that still has the same number of teeth as the 800 gear, so unless they are spaced differently I am not sure but it means buying more rare and unusual parts just to see, it is taking to long finding info and NLA parts, it is doable but will have to wait.

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Jan 07, 2020 1:59 pm

820Vitesse wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:26 pm
Dave I suspect it is beyond repair but will give it a clean with scraper and wire brush first, if it survives that and looks savable then I may well be tapping your brain for the electrolyitic derusting info, otherwise and most likely I will have a go at making a replacement.
Aaaaaaaarrrrrrrggggghhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! NOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!!!!!!! Don't scrape and wire brush it Jim! :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock: :shock:

The beauty of electrolytic derusting is it's non-abrasive, using a scraper and wire brush may be just enough to damage/remove a thin piece of metal that is in fact the seal part of the tube - the electrlytic process turns the rust back into good metal and also lays a small layer of fresh steel on top.

Get a plastic container big enough to get at least half the filler neck in and some scrap steel to serve as the sacrificial anode. Arrange the sacrificial anode around the internal sides of the tub and ensure that when the filler is in, it can't touch the sacrificial anode.

Get some washing soda aka soda crystals, use a good handful to a gallon of water - hot water is better as it dissolves the crystals faster and add the soda and water, giving it a stir to help it dissolve.

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Now you need an "old skool" battery charger capable of 4-6A minimum. Connect the +ve/red clip to the scrap metal/sacrificial anode, ensuring there are also connections to each piece if you use more than one.

Put the filler neck into the tank and connect the -ve/black clip from the battery charger to it. Check to make sure that the filler isn't touching the anode and switch on - you should get a few amps showing on the ammeter on the charger.

Leave overnight, giving the tub a gentle shake to help keep the anode(s) clean and the solution mixed every so often. You can leave it as long as you like, the current will drop as the cathode (work piece) gets derusted and fresh steel attaches itself - note this is a microscopic amount, to build up an area you would have to leave the item in for a long time, preferably with a pump, heater and level control to add liquid when needed.

When you're happy that it is fully derusted, remove from the tank and either rinse off and dry, then coat it either with a protective coat of primer or oil to prevent it rusting or let it dry naturally without rinising. If you do the latter, a soda oxide will form on the surface protecting the metal but this is relatively short term, you'll need to wash/rinse then treat the item within a few days.

Many rust converters that rely on checmicals don't actually convert the rust back to good metal, usually they just dissolve it with some sort of acid, replacing it with another comopund on the surface to protect and inhibit further rust.

Some pics of the last fuel filler neck i did :

https://postimg.cc/CBKg5Hqw

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As you can see, it goes from what i started with which is similar to yours through a couple of interim stages to what i finished up with before priming and painting. The same process can be used on things like the knuckles that house the front wheel bearings, makes removing the bearings much easier! It can also fee off the tracking adjusters in the rear trailing arms so the adjusters can be removed and copper greased before refitting so future adjustment isn't a dockyard job.

It's also an effective degreaser as well and won't harm any existing plating so could be used to repair something previously plated with a spot plating kit (aka brush plating) to build up the damaged/unplated areas.

For the time/effort/expense involved, it's results are worth their weight in gold.

I know you like making things but if you can repair this one for a couple of quid on soda crystals and paint using methods that leave you free tocontinue other jobs, so much the better!

Lastly a note - if you don't have an "old skool" battery charger, use a battery connected to a modern charger - they generally won't charge unless they "see" a battery so using a battery in there as well fools them into giving an output. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Tue Jan 07, 2020 2:19 pm

820Vitesse wrote:
Tue Jan 07, 2020 12:14 pm
Thanks Marc, I have 6 different jobs going on with the Vitesse at the moment, gearbox, gearbox mount upgrade, starter motor and brackets clean and paint, steering wheel and horn, modifying rear suspension top mounts to add camber adjustment, fuel filler neck repair and fuel tank to remove and clean I am going from one to the other while waiting for parts and finding time to get out there.
Once those jobs are done I have my eye on a nice stainless twin outlet rear silencer from the USA as a late Christmas present.
That is what you call a pasion. And i recognize most what you say. My problem is that when one job is done, other imperfections start to anoy haha.

Ah wow that sounds like a nice Christmas present. ;)
Hope to see you car in action one day. :)
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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Re: Re: 1994 BRG Vitesse Fastback

Post by 820Vitesse » Thu Jan 09, 2020 11:20 am

Dave thanks for the comprehensive post, very useful, I will only carefully remove the loose stuff not apply any force, anything I remove will not be any use in the process you describe.
I had a brief look at the video online of a chap makes one using Land Rover parts I suspect this is something I will have to try, I sort of want to so it is top condition rather than repaired, this weekend I will know more but my daily needs some overdue attention too so I may be on that instead unfortunately.

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