Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
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Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
I've been on a bit of an epic rebuild of my car's front end. What should have been a quick gearbox swap ended up being a full suspension rebuild with new powerflex polybushes, new wheel bearings, discs and pads and all new ball joints. Oh, and a new clutch and refurbed injectors. And a slave cylinder.
It just seemed like everything I was taking off to get at the gearbox was F**K*D.
There's no pictures because it wasn't that interesting, but I thought I'd share a few observations i made along the way. My apologies if this is already common knowledge.
1) Good quality clutches are getting hard to source. LuK no longer list any Rovers and the cheapo units on ebay are really nasty. I know, because it's what I took off. In the end I settled for a Valeo, which is pretty much OEM for the Rover, but not so many part companies stock them. The pedal is much lighter now.
2) The polybush kits are excellent. Very easy to fit, well made and seem to make little difference to the ride and road noise. They do however make a huge difference to handling and steering feel.
3) Despite being told something to the contrary, standard 820 inner rack joints will fit a turbo rack.
4) Bleeding the slave cylinder was pretty straight forward. It took some time to get the air out, but with a bit of patience we got there. Not sure why this seems to cause an issue for some people. I'll bleed it again at the next service, once it's settled.
5) Having read some threads on here about aftermarket lower ball joints having a short service life, I removed the rubber boot before fitting to see if there was much lube in there. A minute smear had been applied in the factory and most of that was on the boot, not the joint. I packed it full of moly grease and refitted the boot. These were Firstline parts and they seemed well made apart from the lack of lube.
6) I took the cover off the old box to see why it was so noisey and difficult to get in gear. I found that the thrust bearing (the one with the circlip groove) on the output shaft had collapsed, causing the shaft to move by about 10mm when under load. Thankfully the remaining bearings were all intact so no damage has been done to the housing or gears. I'd advise anyone with a noisy or tempermental 'box to get it looked at ASAP. Mine must have been minutes away from disaster.
7) The ultrasonic injector clean that I had done has made a huge change to the way the engine runs, but has now revealed other issues that need attention, like a tired lifter and some compression issues.
And there endeth my sermon.
If anyone is interested, I am planning on refurbing and selling the old gearbox. It is actually a 620ti unit with slightly different ratios to a proper vitesse 'box, but I couldn't notice the difference and the speedo output is the same. All the syncronisers are within spec and it does have the type B torsen which is the stronger one and I will build it to the correct tollerances with new steel caged bearings throughout. Because of the time and costs involved, I'll probably do this to order if anyone wants it. So please get in touch if you are interested.
It just seemed like everything I was taking off to get at the gearbox was F**K*D.
There's no pictures because it wasn't that interesting, but I thought I'd share a few observations i made along the way. My apologies if this is already common knowledge.
1) Good quality clutches are getting hard to source. LuK no longer list any Rovers and the cheapo units on ebay are really nasty. I know, because it's what I took off. In the end I settled for a Valeo, which is pretty much OEM for the Rover, but not so many part companies stock them. The pedal is much lighter now.
2) The polybush kits are excellent. Very easy to fit, well made and seem to make little difference to the ride and road noise. They do however make a huge difference to handling and steering feel.
3) Despite being told something to the contrary, standard 820 inner rack joints will fit a turbo rack.
4) Bleeding the slave cylinder was pretty straight forward. It took some time to get the air out, but with a bit of patience we got there. Not sure why this seems to cause an issue for some people. I'll bleed it again at the next service, once it's settled.
5) Having read some threads on here about aftermarket lower ball joints having a short service life, I removed the rubber boot before fitting to see if there was much lube in there. A minute smear had been applied in the factory and most of that was on the boot, not the joint. I packed it full of moly grease and refitted the boot. These were Firstline parts and they seemed well made apart from the lack of lube.
6) I took the cover off the old box to see why it was so noisey and difficult to get in gear. I found that the thrust bearing (the one with the circlip groove) on the output shaft had collapsed, causing the shaft to move by about 10mm when under load. Thankfully the remaining bearings were all intact so no damage has been done to the housing or gears. I'd advise anyone with a noisy or tempermental 'box to get it looked at ASAP. Mine must have been minutes away from disaster.
7) The ultrasonic injector clean that I had done has made a huge change to the way the engine runs, but has now revealed other issues that need attention, like a tired lifter and some compression issues.
And there endeth my sermon.
If anyone is interested, I am planning on refurbing and selling the old gearbox. It is actually a 620ti unit with slightly different ratios to a proper vitesse 'box, but I couldn't notice the difference and the speedo output is the same. All the syncronisers are within spec and it does have the type B torsen which is the stronger one and I will build it to the correct tollerances with new steel caged bearings throughout. Because of the time and costs involved, I'll probably do this to order if anyone wants it. So please get in touch if you are interested.
Tom.
'97 Vitesse Coupe
'03 XC90 D5
'97 Vitesse Coupe
'03 XC90 D5
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
That's a good write up Tom
I am interested in point 2) where did you get your polybush set, how much, and what was included?
On my 827 coupe I swapped the original anti roll bars for Vitesse ARBs, although the rubber bushes were in good nick I would like to move to poly bushes generally, unless advised their longevity is not as good as original rubber.
I am interested in point 2) where did you get your polybush set, how much, and what was included?
On my 827 coupe I swapped the original anti roll bars for Vitesse ARBs, although the rubber bushes were in good nick I would like to move to poly bushes generally, unless advised their longevity is not as good as original rubber.
Rock On!
Ian
Ian
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
Really interesting Tom, thanks.
That's a real shame about LuK, I've got one of their clutches in my Vitesse after changing it last April and it's a great piece of kit.
Was the polybush set an all in one kit, or did you pick up bits and pieces as you were going?
And +1 on the ultrasonic clean of the injectors - I had the same done to mine a month or so ago and whether purely psychological or otherwise, it certainly seems to be a lot smoother. It really evened up the flow across the 4 too.
That's a real shame about LuK, I've got one of their clutches in my Vitesse after changing it last April and it's a great piece of kit.
Was the polybush set an all in one kit, or did you pick up bits and pieces as you were going?
And +1 on the ultrasonic clean of the injectors - I had the same done to mine a month or so ago and whether purely psychological or otherwise, it certainly seems to be a lot smoother. It really evened up the flow across the 4 too.
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
There are a few new old stock LuK's floating about, but I wanted to make sure I was getting a turbo clutch. It seems a NASP is the same diameter but has a different drive plate and spring. Some factors were also trying to sell turbo diesel clutches (L series) for the T-turbo fitment.
As for the polybushes, there are some powerflex kits floating around. I think motobuild do one for a good price, but I didn't need the ARB bushes as mine are already poly, so bought what I needed from here : http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/ ... category=1
Be warned their prices are good, but the service isn't. I used the brake reaction bar mounts, lower wishbone bushes and lower strut bushes.
As for the polybushes, there are some powerflex kits floating around. I think motobuild do one for a good price, but I didn't need the ARB bushes as mine are already poly, so bought what I needed from here : http://www.europerformance.co.uk/pages/ ... category=1
Be warned their prices are good, but the service isn't. I used the brake reaction bar mounts, lower wishbone bushes and lower strut bushes.
Tom.
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'03 XC90 D5
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
tom, how do you do an ultrasonic injector clean, also exactly what bushes did you do with poly.
fleet now includes
89 827 sterling auto saloon grey dead and gone
90 827 sli auto saloon pulsar silver
91 820 i special edition flaming hell red
99 820 vitesse turbo sport manual nightfire rust sold to a better owner than i
89 827 sterling auto saloon grey dead and gone
90 827 sli auto saloon pulsar silver
91 820 i special edition flaming hell red
99 820 vitesse turbo sport manual nightfire rust sold to a better owner than i
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
It doesn't cover the 'how' but here's how mine went (look at the post dated May 7th 2015)midnite wrote:tom, how do you do an ultrasonic injector clean,
viewtopic.php?f=2&t=10156&start=30
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
I took it to a place with an ASNU testing and cleaning machine. A full list is here - http://www.asnu.com/centres.htmmidnite wrote:tom, how do you do an ultrasonic injector clean, also exactly what bushes did you do with poly.
The bushes I replaced with poly were the big and small bush in the lower wishbone/track control arm and the brake reaction bar to front subframe bush. I had already replaced my ARB bushed with poly.
I had it all tracked up today and it is like a new car to drive. REALLY REALLY chuffed.
Tom.
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
I don't you are correct there. I'll check the measurement of my take off.mrpcpc wrote:Turbo clutch drive plate is 228mm .
As for cheap clutches and the one I removed, there was no issue with torque transmission but that is not surprising considering how heavy the diaphragm spring was. What concerned me was the transfer of the copper component of the friction material transfering onto the flywheel and cover plate. (It looked the way a brass bush picks up when allowed to sieze) Like yourself I have fitted many, many clutches and have never seen this before. The friction material had also begun to fracture and disintegrate with pieces from the edge missing. Finally the torsional damper springs were loose in their housings causing excessive movement in the drive splines.
All this on a clutch that has done approx 15k miles over 2 years. I have the receipt for its fitment in the service history from the previous owner.
I can only imagine that the cheap clutches you have fitted were still better that what was fitted here.
Tom.
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
Just checked and 228 is the turbo clutch dia, but it is also the size for the higher poweredh L series diesel cars too. The old clutch was 228 too, so not from a Nasp car.
Tom.
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
I agree with you Paul, but in this case it was definately the component that was at fault.mrpcpc wrote:All this experience with unusual wear needs to be taken on in an individual basis.
There are common components that wear with time alone and not only from use.
The same items on another can be found in almost perfect condition, and sometimes regardless of mileage.
If you have done plenty of clutches then you also know from experience that this is the case.
Incidentally, the last gearbox and clutch I removed from an 827 revealed an almost blue flywheel
The drive plate was falling part and furry all over from quick disintegration.
If you saw that on something you was working on, you would know that this would have been from abuse rather than inferior quality components.
It all depends on how it's been driven in my opinion and has rarely very little to do with the quality of the parts, but like I said, granted that the correct part has been fitted in the first place.
People are too often too quick to blame the components.
Tom.
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
I take it they won't fit the T flywheel then. Shame as I suspect turbo diesel clutches would be rather strong.traineefarmer wrote:There are a few new old stock LuK's floating about, but I wanted to make sure I was getting a turbo clutch. It seems a NASP is the same diameter but has a different drive plate and spring. Some factors were also trying to sell turbo diesel clutches (L series) for the T-turbo fitment.
Gordon:-
Only two 800's now,white 1991 820i with TWR and full special order leather (been stood for 15 years) and now a Nightfire red Tickford with 135k on the clock
Only two 800's now,white 1991 820i with TWR and full special order leather (been stood for 15 years) and now a Nightfire red Tickford with 135k on the clock
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
Apparently they do fit, and are the correct diameter, but rated differently. This probably down to the friction material composition. The diesel engines could produce similar torque to the turbo petrol, but at lower speeds so the heat dissipation requirements would be less. Probably.BlueRover wrote:I take it they won't fit the T flywheel then. Shame as I suspect turbo diesel clutches would be rather strong.traineefarmer wrote:There are a few new old stock LuK's floating about, but I wanted to make sure I was getting a turbo clutch. It seems a NASP is the same diameter but has a different drive plate and spring. Some factors were also trying to sell turbo diesel clutches (L series) for the T-turbo fitment.
At some point it's likely that l series clutches will be all we can get anyway, seeing as they were the more popular and long lived engine.
Tom.
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
The clutch diameter is that of the driven plate.
And seriously? All friction materials are the same? 5 minutes on google will tell you otherwise.
Obviously a larger diameter will transmit more torque, but at the cost of more heat generation. Which is why motorsport clutches are usually small diameter, multiplate and made form exotic materials.
And seriously? All friction materials are the same? 5 minutes on google will tell you otherwise.
Obviously a larger diameter will transmit more torque, but at the cost of more heat generation. Which is why motorsport clutches are usually small diameter, multiplate and made form exotic materials.
Tom.
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
I really shouldn't post on forums after a long tiring day...mrpcpc wrote:Ps, good morning to you by the way
I'm itching to start an argument over the difference between a material and a compound, but as you say that would be silly...
Tom.
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Re: Just finished refitting my new gearbox.
Talking of starting arguments i think it was probably me that said the inner track rod ends for a standard rack may not fit the rack fitted to turbo models simply because i didn't know one way or t'other.
The rack ratios are different, that much i do know but i can't remember the ratios, just that a turbo rack is "quicker" (less turns lock to lock) and it might be other components were uprated to cope.
Granted you're still only altering the direction of the car but as i didn't know i couldn't say "yes, standard inner TREs would fit" and didn't want to give you the wrong advice. Sorry if you took that to mean they wouldn't fit, my fault for not being clearer perhaps.
Either way i'm glad you've got it all done and sorted - it's amazing how much difference having properly located steering/suspension components and a decent clutch make!
The rack ratios are different, that much i do know but i can't remember the ratios, just that a turbo rack is "quicker" (less turns lock to lock) and it might be other components were uprated to cope.
Granted you're still only altering the direction of the car but as i didn't know i couldn't say "yes, standard inner TREs would fit" and didn't want to give you the wrong advice. Sorry if you took that to mean they wouldn't fit, my fault for not being clearer perhaps.
Either way i'm glad you've got it all done and sorted - it's amazing how much difference having properly located steering/suspension components and a decent clutch make!
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