1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:13 pm

Not that old! :lol: Something in the back of my mind is saying Daimler DS420, favoured by funeral parlours and Lord Mayors, Crown Court Judges and various minor government ministers to be chauffeured about in :

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In fact if you look closely at that pic, the front seats look like they are grey cloth (or maybe even vinyl! :shock: ) and the rears are black leather. The driver was really only there to aim it to the right destination, it was whoever was in the back that was important.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Marc-827-Vitesse
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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Thu Oct 27, 2016 4:29 pm

Not as old indeed. :P I like those cars. Ah yes, i can see what you mean here. Strange that the driver is treated less than the person in the back.

A friend of mine had a creme one for his wedding car business. In later years of these cars they were made by British Leyland i believe? That same friend of mine told me something funny about leather and cloth. In the pre war Rolls Royces and Bentleys, for example, you will not find leather fitted. Leather was considered to be a waste product and not as posh as a man made velour for example. Later on when they got to know how to make leather in colour and better looking it began to be installed in chique cars. So originally, leather was for the common man and cloth was chique.
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 6:08 pm

I forgot about the wedding cars! :oops:

I think the thing about the driver being treated more "basically" goes back to when servants were much more commonplace than these days. Back then the servants ate in the servants quarters and didn't get the same food as the owners of the house, had their bedrooms in the noisier parts of the house and so on. If you search for the tv series "Upstairs Downstairs" and watch an episode online you'll see what i mean.

I have seen cars (definitely pre-war this time) where the chauffeur didn't have a roof above his seat but the rear seat occupants did, now we pay a premium for a convertible! :roll: Another example of things swapping places like leather and cloth as you rightly say.

British Leyland did indeed produce the DS420 after Jaguar-Daimler became part of them in (i think) the late 60s, i know they were dropped from the line-up sometime late last century but when i'm not too sure.

Odd you mention about pre-war Rolls-Royces, i once worked on a 1927 Silver Ghost (may have been a Silver Wraith, can't remember now) and that actually had leather upholstery. Only for the front seats though, the back were cloth, rather like moquette but a bit plusher. The owner also had a 1983 Silver Spirit that i worked on as well and was able to drive both cars although not very far sadly. Had to be extra careful with them as not only did he own those cars but the place i worked too! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Thu Oct 27, 2016 7:16 pm

Yes indeed. It probably goes back to the 'old money' period. Those times were different. Thanks for the info in regards to DS420 production!
I mentioned the Rolls Royce because my friend also has a Rolls Royce (1936) and that one originally had posh cloth and no leather in it. The rear seats are original cloth. The front was redone in leather.

Cool that you worked on those cars. And yes, if it is your boss extra care is needed. ;)
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Oct 27, 2016 9:54 pm

That suggests the one i worked on had the front seats re-trimmed in leather too - something i wondered about for a long time and also why re-trim the back in cloth, wrong way round obviously!
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Fri Oct 28, 2016 1:35 pm

:) ;)
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Tue Mar 07, 2017 8:31 pm

I treated my father's mk2 827 to some attention.

The plate under the front window needed some TLC. Well known problem as you know. ;) First i took it out and then i sanded it down to see what i had to work with. Three holes came out and one of which was the size as a finger nail. Propper sanded, brushed and treated with rust remedy. Some drying time later i sanded the rust remedy residu. After this the front and rear were sprayed with zinc spray.
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Rear biggest hole:
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Front biggest hole:
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The rear i painted in red high gloss because that side is not seen and because i had a lot of that. Than it was finished with clear varnish.
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After drying i installed the support for the filler. Just some well placed duct-tape.
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Filler with steel in it.
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Finishing the front. Primer:
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Satin black:
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Just to be sure a coat of clear varnish.
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Result no more holes.
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Glued the rubber in place and installed the strip in the car.
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Now the engineering needed some TLC. Under braking the car had vibration. This was down to bent discs. Now Bosch brake discs and Brembo Blocks are installed. Great result.
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During city traffic we noticed that the automatic gearbox was sometimes not so smooth anymore. Doubtful and clunky at times and the lock-up did not function to well. As a surprise to my father i flushed the gearbox with a friend. My 827 Vitesse was flushed by a company using a machine. With my father's 827 Si we did it our self. A machine will get 100% and we about 90% but that is fine. well over 4,5 liter was changed. We drained about 2+ liters of oil by removing the plug (was really in need of changing), filling it again to the correct level with the plug in place, drive for a few kms and then again drain a about two liters. After the first time the difference was already noticeable! Lock-up was working again and the gear changes were smooth again. After the second flush the result was even better. After 1000 kms we will do another one and then it must be great. I took the black limo out for several drives and every time the black beauty seems to drive nicer and nicer. Job well done if i may say so myself (with thanks to my friend who helped). 8)

After all this i cleaned the car and my father was very grateful.
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Last edited by Marc-827-Vitesse on Sat May 12, 2018 5:33 pm, edited 2 times in total.
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Mar 07, 2017 11:08 pm

Great work Marc except for one thing - get that fluid out of the gearbox before it kills it!!! :shock:

Seriously, Dexron II will kill the Honda gearbox in very short order! It attacks the adhesive the friction linings are bonded with and destroys them.

This is the stuff you need :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Carlube-ATF-U ... SwA3dYTXfH

There are others available but most are more expensive (Valvoline MaxLife for one) and a few others available on mainland Europe that might be cheaper for you.

Above all the specification you're looking for is Honda Z-1 compatible - NOT DW-1 though!

Please do it ASAP as it would be a shame to kill the box in an otherwise lovely car!

Then continue your pattern of "part-changes" every 1000km or so, after you've done 3 (drain sump, refill with 3.2L - correct quantity for a sump-drain) of these, remove fuse "S" from the underbonnet fusebox for 5 minutes and refit. This will clear the ECUs of all fault codes, resetting them to factory so they relearn from "new specification" - this will pay dividends in many other ways too.

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Feel free to ask if a particular fluid is ok to use but whatever you do, don't use anything that is Dexron. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Wed Mar 08, 2017 11:49 am

Thank you for your reply. I am a bit confused. My mechanic who worked on these cars for ages said this is the best option, a swiss rover garage who is specialized in Rover (sd1, 800, 75) and also uses this in the Honda transmission. And the 827 of my father has run on dexron for over 60.000 miles. In the old bills we saw it was flushed and dexron was used. Stil very smooth and good schifting. Honda also recomended this oil, websites and the haynes manual aswell.

Please don't take my response as insulting because i am sure you have the best intentions and lots of knowledge.
I think your oils could be the best option maybe but the dexron is not a bad second as i havr found out. We did check several sources and this came out. Even Honda said this is the best for this transmission. But you do sound very adement so i will get into it.

Don't take it wrong mate. ;)
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Mar 08, 2017 6:48 pm

Done a bit of digging for you Marc :

http://www.ebay.co.uk/sch/i.html?_from= ... l&_sacat=0

That should be more available for you.

Back to the Dexron II-D - i'm amazed your dads car is still going on it, i know on the ATF dipstick (which came from Honda) it says to use Dexron II-D but that is for service top-ups only - full changes need Z-1 or a compatible fluid as linked to above.

Also although this isn't a definitive answer, it's about the best in the UK :

http://honda6.ipbhost.com/index.php?/to ... #comment-7

You could also try searching sites in the USA for Honda or Acura auto transmission fluid. You'll probably find a few results about the Class-Action lawsuit Honda faced for saying their new DW-1 fluid was backwards compatible for vehicles originally specified to use Z-1 and many Americans found their trannys (gearboxes) fried.
If you look at the Honda spec sheet for the PL-5 box (as fitted to our 827s and early Legends) you'll find Z-1 is specified. Also there was a forum member (think he was in Scotland but it's a while back now) who had his gearbox die on him shortly after changing the fluid and using Dexron. He bought and fitted another gearbox and filled it with Dexron. A week later that was dead as well. Although secondhand it was guaranteed, when the supplier found out he had filled it with Dexron they refused to honour the guarantee.

While some of this is anecdotal evidence, i'd rather pay a little extra for the Carlube ATF-U or similar Z-1 compatible fluid and know there's no chance the fluid will kill the box.
It would be interesting to contact Honda again and ask for their ATF recommendations for a 1988 Honda Legend 2.7 - they'd probably suggest DW_1 which would also fry the torque converter. :roll:

On the subject of "lazy" torque converter lock-up, the engine coolant thermostat has a huge influence on this. A weak 'stat will cause lack of lock-up. I can't remember the figures exactly but i think the coolant has to be at 74C or above for the lock-up to function. As the standard 827 'stat is only rated at 78C it only needs to be a little bit weak to cause this problem.
A good solution is to fit the 'stat from an 89-96 2/416 which is rated at 82C and was in fact a dealer option here in the UK if people complained about this or that the heater wasn't effective enough. Oddly Honda fitted the 82C 'stat to the engine for almost every other country except what they term Europe which covered the UK and of course, Europe.
This will improve warm-up time, heater output, engine emissions, economy and reduce the chances of lock-up not functioning. The added bonus is they're usually cheaper than the standard 78C 827 'stat.

Don't worry about me taking it the wrong way, it's good you questioned it. For the record, i use ATF-U in all my vehicles, it's a superior fluid to Dexron II-D and you can also use it to make an awesome penetrating oil by mixing it 50/50 with acetone. It works better than Dexron in this application as well for the simple reason it's synthetic so the molecules are smaller but even Dexron and acetone works pretty well.

Another use of ATF-U is in the PAS reservoir in the 800. It may say Dexron on that as well but again, that's for service top ups. The proper stuff is Honda PAS Fluid which is horrendously expensive and almost identical to ATF-U. I change my PAS fluid using a 100ml syringe, suck out the contents of the reservoir and top up with new fluid. Bleed the system by running the engine and turning the steering wheel lock to lock a few times then top up to the correct level.

Do this a few times about a week apart and after 3-5 weeks, the fluid will be lovely and clean and your steering light, smooth and feel better. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Marc-827-Vitesse
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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Wed Mar 08, 2017 8:28 pm

Hi Dave,
That is terrible news. I thought i was doing something good for the car.... Thank you very much for your elaborate and well founded advice. I will take it to hart.
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Mar 09, 2017 7:44 am

You're welcome Marc - in principle you were doing something good, just with the wrong fluid! The other thing is, on an older auto box it's preferable to do "part-changes" rather than "flushing changes" of the fluid.

The part-change is simply removing the drain plug, catching the old fluid and then refit the drain plug and add 3.2L of fresh fluid in through the dipstick hole. The total capacity is 6.6L so arguably 2 part-changes will change the fluid completely, however some old fluid will remain so to further remove contaminants a third part change is usually advisable.

This gives the additives in the fresh fluid time to work on and revive the seals before the "full might" of the new fluid (and increased pressure) hits the seals. Conversely a flushing change throws all fresh fluid in and causes a significant rise in pressure which can blow the seals.

The way i do it is with a car that's new to me, i do 3 part-changes in fairly quick succession, usually between a week and a month apart depending on the distance travelled - 3-400 miles (5-700km) between each then do a part change once a year/every 12000m/20000km to maintain the fluid. This way means it has the same service schedule as originally (full change every 24000miles) but is a lot more gentle and keeps the fluid "fresher" and cleaner in between.

As you've done a flushing change using the Dexron it would probably be wise to be gentle on the accelerator for a month or two until the seals have revived a bit but in between do the part-changes with the Z-1 compatible fluid.

Good luck with it and if you catch it quickly enough you should hopefully be ok. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by rovercoup » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:09 am

Marc,

Damen & kroes Boxtel BV have x52 2.5 Ltr bottles in stock so more than enough for you. Part number VDS000010 this is the genuine hondamatic fluid
Rover 827 Vitesse Fastback Mk1 89
Rover 827 Sterling saloon 90 auto
Rover 820 Tickford Turbo 91
Rover 820 Coupe sport 94
Rover 827 Sterling Saloon 95 auto
Rover 820 Vitesse Fastback 98
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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by rovercoup » Thu Mar 09, 2017 8:10 am

Marc,

Damen & kroes Boxtel BV have x52 2.5 Ltr bottles in stock so more than enough for you. Part number VDS000010 this is the genuine hondamatic fluid

http://www.mgroverpartfinder.com/XPART- ... rice=29.81
Rover 827 Vitesse Fastback Mk1 89
Rover 827 Sterling saloon 90 auto
Rover 820 Tickford Turbo 91
Rover 820 Coupe sport 94
Rover 827 Sterling Saloon 95 auto
Rover 820 Vitesse Fastback 98
Rover 25 2.0TD 01
MGTF 135 02
MGTF 135 03
Rover 45 1.6 SE 05

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Marc-827-Vitesse
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Re: 1993 Rover 827 Si automatic

Post by Marc-827-Vitesse » Thu Mar 09, 2017 6:13 pm

Thanks guys. ;)
1989 Rover 827 Vitesse.
1982 Rover 3500 Vanden Plas.

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