Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

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Manalishi
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Manalishi » Thu May 30, 2019 6:22 am

Maybe it runs better when slightly over fuelling due to cold weather? A plan would be to really check the running when cold and hot. If the running alters into misfire when hot there could be a fuelling issue.

I dont trust miracle cures to put in the tank but there is actually a injector cleaner that I can recommend. Red Line si-1. I would try that!
Henrik
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu May 30, 2019 7:06 am

Charles827si wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 5:39 am
I left the car outside overnight last night. And I did this because I was interested to see if the somewhat cold and wet conditions would have any adverse impact on the running of the car first thing this morning.
Having driven it 4.5 miles ( my usual route) I can't actually say I noticed any misfiring or rough running today at all.
In fact, the coupe ran very well indeed.
There was one point where I needed to plant my foot in order to overtake a slow moving tractor. The car just responded as well as hoped - no hestitation of the throttle and I got passed the tractor and safely toward my destination.
I parked up - gave the gas pedal 3 or 4 revs. Again; no misfire to be heard and a very 'healthy sounding throttle noise.
I hadn't actually done anything before my journey or yesterday as far as plug wires, dizzy are concerned.
So this is strange - but in a good way.

Will just see how things go over the next two days..
Would i be right in thinking you normally garage the car Charles? If so i think you have unwittingly found the problem which would have taken a while otherwise.
Manalishi wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:22 am
Maybe it runs better when slightly over fuelling due to cold weather? A plan would be to really check the running when cold and hot. If the running alters into misfire when hot there could be a fuelling issue.

I dont trust miracle cures to put in the tank but there is actually a injector cleaner that I can recommend. Red Line si-1. I would try that!
Let's see what Charles says about whether he normally garages the car Henrik. I have a theory based on what has happened and know it to be a valid one.

Do you know the active ingredient in this fuel injector cleaner? I've tried something recently that worked well on the Volvo, suggested it to someone else on the Volvo forum, they tried it and got similar results, i have yet to try it on my 827 but it's something you wouldn't expect to do the job.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Manalishi » Thu May 30, 2019 7:16 am

scoobyh123 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:06 am
Manalishi wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:22 am
Maybe it runs better when slightly over fuelling due to cold weather? A plan would be to really check the running when cold and hot. If the running alters into misfire when hot there could be a fuelling issue.

I dont trust miracle cures to put in the tank but there is actually a injector cleaner that I can recommend. Red Line si-1. I would try that!
Let's see what Charles says about whether he normally garages the car Henrik. I have a theory based on what has happened and know it to be a valid one.

Do you know the active ingredient in this fuel injector cleaner? I've tried something recently that worked well on the Volvo, suggested it to someone else on the Volvo forum, they tried it and got similar results, i have yet to try it on my 827 but it's something you wouldn't expect to do the job.
No not really but I presume it's not far off a strong white spirit. I know people tend to say injection cleaners are the same as white spirit, but I don't think it's that simple. I've tried a few on the market, both expensive and cheap and the only real difference I've ever noticed was with the RedLine Si-1. And from reading on the net (where I first found it) it seems lot of people agree. I've used it in both the Rover and my Honda Accord 2.4 and both cars ran smoother afterwards, feeling equal to changing spark plugs.
Henrik
Rover 820 Vitesse Coupe 180bhp -93 (Italy)
Rover 827 Vitesse manual (non cat) -89 (Spain)
Lexus GS450h -13
Austin Seven Special -36
Gone:
Rover 820 ti -95
Rover 216 DOHC coupe -93
Rover 620 ti -98

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu May 30, 2019 7:40 am

Manalishi wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 7:16 am

No not really but I presume it's not far off a strong white spirit. I know people tend to say injection cleaners are the same as white spirit, but I don't think it's that simple. I've tried a few on the market, both expensive and cheap and the only real difference I've ever noticed was with the RedLine Si-1. And from reading on the net (where I first found it) it seems lot of people agree. I've used it in both the Rover and my Honda Accord 2.4 and both cars ran smoother afterwards, feeling equal to changing spark plugs.
Looking it up online, i found this :

https://www.redlineoil.com/si-1-complet ... em-cleaner

Scrolling down the page to the "Warning" section is this : This product can expose you to chemicals including Naphthalene (91-20-3) which is known to the State of California to cause cancer.

I'm not a chemist but know napthalene was used for nasty stuff in the past, or something with a very similar name and/or derivation. Wikipedia seems to agree that it's nasty :

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naphthalene

I do know (and it's confirmed by Wiki) that it's used to make moth-balls and is banned now for that purpose. Looking up white spirit on Wiki gives an interesting alternative name - solvent naptha!

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/White_spirit

From a different angle, it adds a lot of weight to the theory behind what i used in the Volvo. I'm not going to reveal my miracle cure for injector cleaning until i've tried it in the Sterling but i think it will work well.
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu May 30, 2019 4:18 pm

Well, this has all gotten very intriguing since this morning chaps. :D

Yes, the car is normally garaged at night.
So are we looking at some fueling issue?

I've tried Injector cleaner in recent months before. This worked for a brief period only.
Dave; is that miracle stuff suggested to work similar to injector cleaner?
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu May 30, 2019 6:57 pm

Charles827si wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 4:18 pm
Well, this has all gotten very intriguing since this morning chaps. :D

Yes, the car is normally garaged at night.
So are we looking at some fueling issue?

I've tried Injector cleaner in recent months before. This worked for a brief period only.
Dave; is that miracle stuff suggested to work similar to injector cleaner?
First question is have you checked the coolant level but i already know you have and it's ok now.

Are we looking at fueling? Errr, yeah..........but ....................no, but yeah but no but..................

In addition to the EICV (Electronic Idle Control Valve) that controls the idle speed, for the cold start only on the 827, there's a thermally controlled (heated by coolant in a water channel on the throttle body) idle valve that increases the air intake on a cold engine.

Keeping it in the garage overnight would mean that the heat from the car would warm the garage somewhat and keep the car warmer, let's say for the purposes of explaining at 20C or above. As the engine warms up the next day, it gets to 78C (if it's still on a standard 'stat) so the range of movement is 20-78C in terms of heating the bimetallic strip that moves the idle valve.
You'd think, anyway.

In reality that thermally operated valve is designed to be shut by the time the engine reaches 40C or thereabouts, i'd have to check the figure in the WSM if i can find it easily again, it's a while since i saw it.

That means there's probably only about 20C temperature difference worth of movement on this valve. Go back to last summer and the valve probaly never opened, meaning it started building residue and gum round the edges of it. As it started cooling off again in September time last year, it probably cooled the valve and opened it a bit but we've had a relatively mild winter. That means it might have cooled a bit more and then stuck - you might have noticed on the colder days it was a bit reluctant to start and idled a bit low until it warmed up.

As time has gone on with the car being in the garage, this valve hasn't moved much so has probably stuck partially open.

At least until the other day when you left it out in the cold and damp, the damp would give evaporative cooling too, making it feel colder than it really was but the engine would feel that extra cold.
As such it probably opened the valve more, breaking the seal of the gum/residue so the thermal valve can open and shut again through it's normal range of movement.

I suspect what had happened was it had stuck partially open and the EICV was able to bring the hot idle speed down to within limits but the extra air was trying to bring it up again so the engine would have been rhythmically hunting, not misfiring as such, just not idling cleanly. Would still have passed emissions though.

Does all this fit in with the timeline and general symptoms Charles?

As for the miracle stuff, i have found it works on one lot of injectors and quietened a noisy fuel pump too. Once i've tried it on my Sterling i'll let you know what it is and also if it worked or not. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu May 30, 2019 7:22 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 6:57 pm
Charles827si wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 4:18 pm
Well, this has all gotten very intriguing since this morning chaps. :D

Yes, the car is normally garaged at night.
So are we looking at some fueling issue?

I've tried Injector cleaner in recent months before. This worked for a brief period only.
Dave; is that miracle stuff suggested to work similar to injector cleaner?
First question is have you checked the coolant level but i already know you have and it's ok now.

Are we looking at fueling? Errr, yeah..........but ....................no, but yeah but no but..................

In addition to the EICV (Electronic Idle Control Valve) that controls the idle speed, for the cold start only on the 827, there's a thermally controlled (heated by coolant in a water channel on the throttle body) idle valve that increases the air intake on a cold engine.

Keeping it in the garage overnight would mean that the heat from the car would warm the garage somewhat and keep the car warmer, let's say for the purposes of explaining at 20C or above. As the engine warms up the next day, it gets to 78C (if it's still on a standard 'stat) so the range of movement is 20-78C in terms of heating the bimetallic strip that moves the idle valve.
You'd think, anyway.

In reality that thermally operated valve is designed to be shut by the time the engine reaches 40C or thereabouts, i'd have to check the figure in the WSM if i can find it easily again, it's a while since i saw it.

That means there's probably only about 20C temperature difference worth of movement on this valve. Go back to last summer and the valve probaly never opened, meaning it started building residue and gum round the edges of it. As it started cooling off again in September time last year, it probably cooled the valve and opened it a bit but we've had a relatively mild winter. That means it might have cooled a bit more and then stuck - you might have noticed on the colder days it was a bit reluctant to start and idled a bit low until it warmed up.

As time has gone on with the car being in the garage, this valve hasn't moved much so has probably stuck partially open.

At least until the other day when you left it out in the cold and damp, the damp would give evaporative cooling too, making it feel colder than it really was but the engine would feel that extra cold.
As such it probably opened the valve more, breaking the seal of the gum/residue so the thermal valve can open and shut again through it's normal range of movement.

I suspect what had happened was it had stuck partially open and the EICV was able to bring the hot idle speed down to within limits but the extra air was trying to bring it up again so the engine would have been rhythmically hunting, not misfiring as such, just not idling cleanly. Would still have passed emissions though.

Does all this fit in with the timeline and general symptoms Charles?

As for the miracle stuff, i have found it works on one lot of injectors and quietened a noisy fuel pump too. Once i've tried it on my Sterling i'll let you know what it is and also if it worked or not. :wink: :D
This sequence of circumstantial events fit in with the cars behaviour over the last 12 months and more.
Though speaking about emissions, the car failed on the emissions at the last MOT.
This was likely due to the tester carrying out the CAT test instead of the NON CAT test.
The MOT emissions testing from 2 years ago was done correctly with the NON CAT (metered test). At that date of test, the car passed with flying colours.

Another observation I've made, is when I have left the car out overnight on previous occasions; - sometimes in much colder winter conditions, there is no issues with cranking and no delay starting. Its instant starting always...except for when the engine is still hot after a run. Trying to start after a run is hit and miss. This I'm sure is down to the PGMFI relay. I still haven't fixed the relay, which we discussed on this thread quite some time ago now :shock:
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu May 30, 2019 9:15 pm

Mine is 1994 and still qualifies for the BET rather than full cat test Charles so yours most certainly should qualify for the BET emissions.

The PGM-Fi relay doesn't usually cause misfires but could be causing starting problems, particularly when hot. Worth sorting that out as well.

After that, there is a solenoid that operates in the Control Box (mounted engine side of bulkhead on the left) to boost fuel pressure to maximum if the engine temperature is above a certain level until the engine fires. It's possible that it isn't operating and a vapour lock is in the fuel lines when hot.

As for the sequence of events, it sounds as if you unwittingly fixed the problem simply by leaving it out of the garage one night!
To confirm this and help prevent the problem in the future, one cold morning after it's been out all night, before starting it, remove the air intake trunking from the throttle body, hold the thottle open by hand and then spray carb cleaner inside the throttle body, better still if it comes with a long nozzle/straw, direct this into the various drillings that can be seen round the inside of the throttle body.

Now start the car and spray as many of the holes as you can see with the throttle closed, preferably with the nozzle. Repeat a couple of times as it warms up. You might have to "catch" the engine on the throttle by opening it manually to rev it up a bit to clear the excess carb cleaner but it should send some serious carp out the tail pipes and restore perfect running. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


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'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu May 30, 2019 10:28 pm

I could have solved this unwittingly..or could just be 'fluke'.
I have cleaned the throttle body out within the last 3 years. Might be worth doing it again though.

Cheers Dave!
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu May 30, 2019 10:41 pm

You've done a good few miles on those 3 years though Charles! Definitely worth another clean out! Must do mine again soon.

When i worked in a Peugeot main dealers, it wasn't uncommon to have to clean out the thottle body on a 205/309GTi at every ervice then see the same car in halfway through the service interval for rough running because it needed cleaning out again.
Those XU9 engines were heavy breathers at the best of times, worse still in GTi form especially with a lead-footed driver! They were all a POS though - give you a clue, it rhymes with Isle of Wight! :wink: :lol: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Thu May 30, 2019 10:50 pm

Thats true Dave, I've covered a few 1000 of miles in 3 years.

I best make cleaning that a routine job once a year at least.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu May 30, 2019 11:00 pm

Once a year should do it nicely Charles, perhaps combine it with another job like a part-change of your PAS fluid once a year. Couple of little jobs that don't take long but make a big difference! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Fri May 31, 2019 1:36 am

scoobyh123 wrote:
Thu May 30, 2019 11:00 pm
Once a year should do it nicely Charles, perhaps combine it with another job like a part-change of your PAS fluid once a year. Couple of little jobs that don't take long but make a big difference! :wink: :D

Just changed the PAS fluid; in the hope this will stop a certain low turn speed clonking noise.
There's always something amis :?
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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scoobyh123
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Fri May 31, 2019 6:30 am

What sort of low speed clonking noise?
Cheers,
Dave

'02 Honda CR-V SE Executive
'99 Jag S Type 3.0 V6 SE


Image
'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Charles827si
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Fri May 31, 2019 6:55 am

scoobyh123 wrote:
Fri May 31, 2019 6:30 am
What sort of low speed clonking noise?
I've noticed up to recently on at least 4 occasions, when I put the car into reverse, moving back slowly and turning the wheel, (from full lock) there is a definite clonk from the front end.
However, - yet to notice this clonk since changing the PAS fluid.
I usually have to top up the PAS fluid at least every 2/3 months.
There's a leak which has been apparent ever since I've owned the car.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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