Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

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scoobyh123
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:36 pm

That sounds like a fusebox problem to me Charles. You should be able to get the windows back up with the "Lazy Locking" - just hold the key in the lock position in the drivers door until both windows and sunroof are shut.
Alternatively, hold the lock button on the fob, the LED starts flashing fast and the windows/roof shut in turn.

If the windows/roof shut as they should then (assuming you've programmed them correctly) then it would point towards the switchpacks. If it's still a problem then it's likely that the ECU needs a bit of investigation after checking/repairing the fusebox.

THe other thing is, the switchpacks can suffer lack of use but by the same token, they are now 24+ years old. As you have a Mk2a you should (in theory) be able to get away with trying a 4-window switchpack from a Mk2a but not from a Mk2b.
Cheers,
Dave


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'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:08 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 12:36 pm
That sounds like a fusebox problem to me Charles. You should be able to get the windows back up with the "Lazy Locking" - just hold the key in the lock position in the drivers door until both windows and sunroof are shut.
Alternatively, hold the lock button on the fob, the LED starts flashing fast and the windows/roof shut in turn.

If the windows/roof shut as they should then (assuming you've programmed them correctly) then it would point towards the switchpacks. If it's still a problem then it's likely that the ECU needs a bit of investigation after checking/repairing the fusebox.

THe other thing is, the switchpacks can suffer lack of use but by the same token, they are now 24+ years old. As you have a Mk2a you should (in theory) be able to get away with trying a 4-window switchpack from a Mk2a but not from a Mk2b.
I changed the fusebox around 2016 with a good used one.
At the time it solved the intermittent dashboard light flickering.
Since then my dashboard lights have been fine and that's 3 years being ok.

The electric windows have always been a little lax in operation.
This year the problem has got worse for sure.
I use all the window switch packs as much as possible just to keep them in working order.
My money is on the electric window ecu being the culprit behind these issues.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:20 pm

Usually the main problems with the fusebox show up as windows, wipers (including the loss of variable timing on intermittent) and some generally odd behaviour on anything controlled by the CCU such as the dash lights.

Given it was a good used one in 2016, there's a chance it's no longer as good unless it has been resoldered properly before you had it. That means removing the old solder from each joint and resoldering with new, proper tin/lead solder after.

The window ECUs are fairly reliable and the Coupe ones are rare like hens dentists and not interchangeable with 4-window ECUs so if you are unlucky enough to have an ECU problem, it could be hard finding a replacement.

Also the window motors aren't the same as the rest of the range, they have feedback tachogenerators built in to tell the ECU if they're moving, which direction and how fast. The 4-window versions don't have this.

My money is still on the fusebox but happy to be proved wrong! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:22 pm

I've never had any problems with the wipers. While I had thought the fusebox maybe due for checking again, I'm also under the impression that the window ecu has been ingressed with water.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 10:53 pm

The problem i had with the wipers was i couldn't vary the delay, it defaulted to the mid-point of 10s, shortest and longest being 5s and 15s respectively. Round here we get a strange sort of rain called mizzle, it's mix of mist and drizzle so is very fine, soaks you in seconds if you're out in it without you realising andonly needs a wipe every 15-20s on intermittent. Every 10s was way too often which is how i noticed it.

If the window ECU has indeed suffered water ingress, there are a few things you can do that might help.
You have to remove the passenger seat for access to it as i'm fairly sure you know but then there is a cover over it. Once that is off, there are 3 or 4 bolts securing it to the floorpan.
I'm fairly sure from memory that one of these is an earth connection to the case of the window ECU and the case is aluminium. If it has got wet, chances are very high that earth is corroded. If so, that could well be the cause of your problems. Worth cleaning that up as a starting point, also unplug the multiplugs, squirt inside them both on the loom and the ECU with contact cleaner and remake/unplug several times. Might be a good idea to disconnect the battery while doing this, just to avoid any current surges through it.

Give those things a try and see if things improve, if not i'd definitely have a look at the fusebox. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:08 pm

Thats another fun job for next weekend.
Cheers for the step by step process Dave :D
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:23 pm

Something to keep you amused anyway Charles! :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:37 pm

scoobyh123 wrote:
Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:23 pm
Something to keep you amused anyway Charles! :wink: :D
Indeed :D. I guess there are always jobs, big or small, niggling or easy.. :D
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Tue Jul 02, 2019 11:47 pm

You're not wrong Charles - need to check/adjust the tracking on the Sterling some time very soon, before that i need to reposition the longtitudinal member between the crossmembers as it's not quite right at the moment.

Then check/adjust the tracking....................... :roll: :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 6:50 am

Today I had an initial thought about my battery going bad. Because in the last week, I've had a delayed start upon cranking.
Normally the car fires into life instantly from cold.
I used the car this morning and it was slow to start again (but not as bad as last night)
The battery is fortunately still under warranty. This battery already replaced the previous warentied battery in January 2018.
Since the warranty actually started on 21.08.2017, the battery is well within the 3 year time frame.
So I'm gonna have it replaced free of charge this morning. Ive not even bothered to test it, but I guarentee that a few amps have been lost in a short time.

I'm curious to know the dimensions of the battery tray so I can look out for a better replacement in the near future. Then I can put today's replacement on the Mk1 which is rarely in use.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:32 am

Is it a calcium battery Charles? If so, you might find that the battery is still ok and the "problem" is actually the car, specifically the alternator. It was designed for a plain lead-acid battery, calcium technology replaces the lead-antimony coating on one set of plates with silver-calcium. Calcium batteries need a minimum of 14.7V to start charging, the alternator on yours isn't capable of delivering that without a small modification to boost the output voltage by 0.6~0.7V as it is designed to give 14.4V cold and 14.0V hot.

The modification drops about 0.7V on the battery sense line into the alternator so the alternator sees the battery voltage as lower than it really is, adjusting the output voltage to compensate. This means the output is now in the range of 14.7-15.1V which is the ideal range for a calcium battery.

I can supply the details of how to do it, fairly simple job, takes about 10 minutes. See what happens with your battery first though. :wink: :D

Nearly forgot - the biggest physical battery you can squeeze into an 800 battery tray is an 096 or as they've changed it to in recent years, a 100 :

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product-tag/096

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product-tag/100

The price fluctuates, sometimes the 096 is cheaper, other times it's the 100 that is cheaper. Same physical size, same electrical characteristics, only the name has been changed. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:05 am

scoobyh123 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 8:32 am
Is it a calcium battery Charles? If so, you might find that the battery is still ok and the "problem" is actually the car, specifically the alternator. It was designed for a plain lead-acid battery, calcium technology replaces the lead-antimony coating on one set of plates with silver-calcium. Calcium batteries need a minimum of 14.7V to start charging, the alternator on yours isn't capable of delivering that without a small modification to boost the output voltage by 0.6~0.7V as it is designed to give 14.4V cold and 14.0V hot.

The modification drops about 0.7V on the battery sense line into the alternator so the alternator sees the battery voltage as lower than it really is, adjusting the output voltage to compensate. This means the output is now in the range of 14.7-15.1V which is the ideal range for a calcium battery.

I can supply the details of how to do it, fairly simple job, takes about 10 minutes. See what happens with your battery first though. :wink: :D

Nearly forgot - the biggest physical battery you can squeeze into an 800 battery tray is an 096 or as they've changed it to in recent years, a 100 :

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product-tag/096

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/product-tag/100

The price fluctuates, sometimes the 096 is cheaper, other times it's the 100 that is cheaper. Same physical size, same electrical characteristics, only the name has been changed. :wink: :D
I phoned the garage I bought the battery off originally, (where I needed a battery urgent) but they said they can't test it today.
I've been invited to take the car in tomorrow. Except this could take a few hours and I really don't see why.

I just assumed that the battery line brand thats been stocked by this garage are cheap lead batteries made in some far eastern country, because there is no date of manufacture on any one side of the thing I've noticed.

What ive done now is disconnected the battery and put in on trickle charge in the garage.
Ive got a good quality duty 'Ring' workshop charger.

The starting problems ive had only began as I say within the last week.

However, most of my driving is short commuting doing 8/9 miles a day.
Therefore, I guess the battery never has chance to fully charge.

And because I largely use the fan heater, the dab radio, and occasionly the driver heated seat; - the battery is discharging more than it gets charged up, in all likelihood.

Will see how it starts later on after a few hours of trickle charging.

Ideally though I would like to fit a Bosch S5 battery. I fitted two of those on my Mk1 and this Mk2 coupe. I never had issues with the Bosch and they usually outlasted their 5 year guarantee.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:47 am

If they're going to do it properly, they'll charge the battery before testing it. You can't test a flat/half-flat battery, it's likely to blow up. That means they need it for a few hours to charge the battery.

However, don't waste your money on a Bosch battery. Compare these two batteries :

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/p ... varta-e11/

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/p ... bosch-096/

Identical except for the stickers. Now compare these two :

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/p ... varta-e44/

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/p ... ilver-096/

Again, identical except for the stickers. I bought a "cosmetic" battery (no labels/brand, shorter guarantee but much cheaper) from that sites ebay shop and it was the same as the first two and in fact, i found a piece of paper in the packaging saying "Varta/Bosch". In other words, they get the batteries in and brand them with the stickers at point of sale.

All that said, their own brand (ABS) is just as good and i daresay, made in the same factory using the same materials etc.

Have you checked the alternator drive belt tension? It's a poly-v (flat with lengthwise ribs) belt so should be tight so you can play the opening riff of "Smoke on the water" on it. If it isn't, then your short commute using those sort of consumers will compromise the state of charge, especially if it's mainly at town driving speeds.
That said, it's a 70A alternator so unless you're pootling around like you're driving Miss Daisy then it should be getting a decent charge as long as the belt is tight enough.

What make/designation is the battery and are there any clues on it to suggest it's a calcium beast?
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:55 am

This is the best price I've seen for the Bosch. I understand the size is 100.

My brain is abit frazzled after searching the net for the last 2 hours with regards to batteries. :|

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Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

User avatar
Charles827si
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Posts: 1163
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Re: Charles' early 92 827 manual coupe

Post by Charles827si » Wed Jul 10, 2019 10:44 am

scoobyh123 wrote:
Wed Jul 10, 2019 9:47 am
If they're going to do it properly, they'll charge the battery before testing it. You can't test a flat/half-flat battery, it's likely to blow up. That means they need it for a few hours to charge the battery.

However, don't waste your money on a Bosch battery. Compare these two batteries :

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/p ... varta-e11/

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/p ... bosch-096/

Identical except for the stickers. Now compare these two :

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/p ... varta-e44/

https://advancedbatterysupplies.co.uk/p ... ilver-096/

Again, identical except for the stickers. I bought a "cosmetic" battery (no labels/brand, shorter guarantee but much cheaper) from that sites ebay shop and it was the same as the first two and in fact, i found a piece of paper in the packaging saying "Varta/Bosch". In other words, they get the batteries in and brand them with the stickers at point of sale.

All that said, their own brand (ABS) is just as good and i daresay, made in the same factory using the same materials etc.

Have you checked the alternator drive belt tension? It's a poly-v (flat with lengthwise ribs) belt so should be tight so you can play the opening riff of "Smoke on the water" on it. If it isn't, then your short commute using those sort of consumers will compromise the state of charge, especially if it's mainly at town driving speeds.
That said, it's a 70A alternator so unless you're pootling around like you're driving Miss Daisy then it should be getting a decent charge as long as the belt is tight enough.

What make/designation is the battery and are there any clues on it to suggest it's a calcium beast?
I'll check the brand of battery this afternoon Dave. I'm sure there is a label on one side but I didnt bother to read the brand name or battery type (being either calcium or lead/other) because I was looking for a date build stamp and the amp (aH) rating.
This aH is on the top side (74aH).
But neither could I find the size/dimension number. Looking at the battery, this could be either 096 or 100.

The last time I properly checked the alternater belt was around 10 months ago because at that time I was getting squealing noises that have all stopped in recent times. I put that down to engine oil leaks but now the squealing has gone, I find that change of fortune rather curious.
I dont seem to get oil leaks much at all lately which must be a good thing.

I did wonder about Bosch/Varta being shared in manufacturing.
Bosch is keen to advertise their battery technology which makes me wonder if the designs shared are by Bosch.
Charles 'Yorks'
"88 827si Fastback (manual) - Mum owned from new
"92 827 Coupe (manual)
"88 827sli Saloon (auto)
2011 Lexus IS220D F Sport
It's a stick shift? No, It's a grip shift!
ImageImage

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