Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Please post pictures, specifications and worklogs of your cars in here.

Moderators: guru, SJG

Post Reply
mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Mon Apr 01, 2019 3:39 pm

Right - really sorry there's little in the way of feedback, I'm still kind of firefighting here. I'll do a proper update when I get more than 10 minutes sat down.

Does anyone have a part number for the correct lambda sensor for this 97/8 Vitesse? I assume there's only one, just nestled next to the turbo.

I've got it back to Manchester. Still awful to start (although significantly better than it was this morning), I suspect massively overfuelling. It's now a process of elimination I think, starting with the lambda sensor.
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 10604
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:41 pm

First question Adiran - has the cam timing been corrected yet? No point throwing parts at it if it hasn't, then there's a couple of other things to check and do first.

If it has, remove fuse "S" from the engine fusebox for 5 minutes then replace. Then perform a stepper-motor reset.

Image

Give it a test drive and see how things have improved.

I suspect MEMS learned the fueling needed for the incorrect cam timing and now it's correct (i hope!) it's having trouble re-learning where it should be, hence the reset by pulling the fuse for a few minutes and the stepper-motor reset.
Last edited by scoobyh123 on Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:46 pm, edited 2 times in total.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:43 pm

Yep
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:44 pm

And nothing happens when the lambda sensor is unplugged - literally no change to its running.

It's overfuelling, and lambda readings were all over the shop on the emissions tester, going right down, whilst the emissions went right up.
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:46 pm

I'll be getting the FPR and associated vacuum pipework checked over, as well as (once corrected) a(nother) fresh set of plugs tomorrow - for now, I'll just clean up and re-gap the brand new NGK ones that are on it before using the fancy ones.
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 10604
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 4:47 pm

Our replies crossed and me editing to add information didn't help! It sounds as if it's gone into Limp Mode so give the resets a try before condemning the lambda sensor. How were they actually reading the Lambda value at the garage?
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:02 pm

Lambda values read using the MOT emissions tester.

The battery was disconnected for the whole time the engine was being re-timed, and then I've done a 200 mile 'test-drive', so I'm confident its had time to re-learn!
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Mon Apr 01, 2019 5:03 pm

So, all of that taken together (and the absence of change when actually physically unplugging the lambda sensor) has taken me to the next phase - lambda sensor
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 10604
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:06 pm

The Lambda values from the emissions testing kit only show if it's running rich or lean overall, below 1.00 is rich, above is lean. It is a calculation done within the machine and doesn't actually bear any real resemblance to what the Lambda sensor is doing.

However, when a Lambda fails, the output goes low telling the ECU the engine is running lean (stoichiometric gives about 0.5V roughly) and if it fails, the ECU richens the mixture in an attempt to bring the Lambda output voltage up. As the sensor is dead, it doesn't see a higher voltage so adds more fuel still.

I missed one vital bit of evidence - the HG had failed so was probably pumping coolant out through the exhaust which would have killed the Lambda.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:27 pm

Yeah, agreed - plus, as I think you mentioned a few pages back, who knows how long it's been overheating for? Whatever happened, it was about as FUBARed as it's possible to get after HGF :D

So, after all that, do you know which sensor I need? I've seen ebay stuffed full of versions ranging from £25 to £95 and upwards.

Thanks for all your help with this - I'm juggling multiple contributions to getting it resolved and don't always remember who's helped me with what.
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 10604
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 6:56 pm

I'm not sure exactly which sensor it is but the same one fits the K series lumps including the KV6, try and get one with a plug already fitted to make life easier.

Also once fitted do the fuse "S" thing so the ECU is back to a clean slate again.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:06 pm

Damnit! I had a couple of sensors from when I had my ZT - or at least thought I did. Must have let them go with the car when I sold it.
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 10604
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Apr 01, 2019 8:50 pm

It's a false economy (in every sense of the words!) using secondhand Lambda sensors. Very often the shock from undoing them is enough to damage them so they fail in fairly short order afterwards. Also they only have a service life of 100k miles/10 years so the chances are, they weren't up to much anyway. I have one somewhere from an 825 i broke a couple of years back, not used it yet and the reason i didn't offer it is because it hasn't been tested since removal.

My original plan for it was when i wanted to fit a Lambda sensor to my Volvo for the LPG conversion and it would have been on/near the front exhaust box so a single wire jobby would never get hot enough to function, hence wanting a heated one. I've now decided to mount one in the right hand bank front pipe, near the manifold so i can get away with a single wire jobby instead.

You'd be welcome to the ex KV6 one i have for the cost of postage but i can't vouch for it being working.

Doing a bit of digging on the INtermotor catalogue and fleabay, i've found this :

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/FUEL-PARTS-L ... 2538495965

That has a 650mm lead.

https://www.fpukfindapart.co.uk/findapa ... el%20Parts

https://www.fpukfindapart.co.uk/findapa ... el%20Parts

Second one (without an ebay listing to go with it) is the 370mm lead version, as far as i can work out from the INtermotor catalogue, they are the same except for lead length.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

mercedade
Rover Guru
Posts: 1252
Joined: Mon Nov 17, 2008 2:06 pm
Location: Manchester, UK
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by mercedade » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:06 pm

So, in the meantime, we've been trying and failing to get this to run properly - the primary issue seems to be that compression is way, way down.

Quick summary: headgasket was comprehensively blown and head warped. It was sent away for a 'hefty' skim (I've no idea on pressure testing the head).
After much faff in re-fitting, it really struggled to start. Like, REALLY struggled. On most times, it will only start when the injectors are unplugged, shutting off fuel, engine will catch and then the plug can be reconnected and it will run. It definitely 'chuffs'. It stinks of fuel.
Suspected the cam timing was out - can confirm now that it wasn't/isn't (will upload pictures in a bit of the before and after once we'd managed to properly locate 90 deg before TDC). it's been timed and retimed multiple times because we just want to be 100%.
It's underpowered but perfectly capable of maintaining motorway speeds, losing absolutely no coolant or oil.
Compression test done and it's low, across all 4 cylinders.
Added some oil to the cylinders and it remains low, but the oil can be seen sitting on top of the pistons, suggesting it's not leaking past the piston rings.
When driving, there's no blue smoke.
The plugs are VERY rapidly fouling with black soot.
We are pretty confident lambda sensor is goosed, but that's totally irrelevant to it's appalling cold start issues and lack of compression.
Cam covers off and all valves are operating correctly when crank is turned by hand.

I'm OUT of ideas.
Adrian
1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (white gold)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 820 Vitesse Hatchback (green)
Gone...1992 Rover Mk1 827 SLi Manual (green)
Gone...1998 Rover Mk2 825 Diesel (green)

User avatar
scoobyh123
Rover Guru
Posts: 10604
Joined: Sat Jul 11, 2009 10:27 pm
Location: Next door to Top Gun, Suffolk
Contact:

Re: Mercedade's '97 Vitesse Lux

Post by scoobyh123 » Thu Apr 04, 2019 3:23 pm

Get them to check the fuel pressure - a silly thought just crossed my mind they may have trapped the return line when refitting the head resulting in seriously high fuel pressure. This would also mean the Lambda sensor wouldn't alter the mixture as the ECU altering the injection time wouldn't make much difference with excess fuel pressure.

If memory serves (without checking) it should be about 30-34psi above manifold pressure, if the return line is kinked/crushed/trapped, it will be about 60psi, maybe more.

That could cause the injectors to leak while the engine is off, also will cause fuel wash round the bores resulting in a poor seal (hence lack of compression) and the CTS might be disconnected and/or faulty resulting in over rich fueling.

Gut feeling is they've made a silly mistake somewhere, just a case of finding it!
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

Post Reply
[phpBB Debug] PHP Warning: in file [ROOT]/vendor/twig/twig/lib/Twig/Extension/Core.php on line 1266: count(): Parameter must be an array or an object that implements Countable

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Google [Bot] and 7 guests