Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

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scotty2
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Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scotty2 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 4:50 pm

Time to start a log of the lives of my Rover 800s.

TB2. following a failed MOT on CV boot and emissions has now got a ticket. New catalytic Converter sorted the emissions. After the MOT I treated her to a new water pump (EWP044) and power steering pump (QVB100900) to try and stop the rumbling that we couldn't trace to a specific unit. Rumble now gone. Tried to change the cambelt but couldn't get the pulley nut off so I'll farm that one back to the garage. So since purchase it has had a partial respray for the arches, alternator, rear silencer, Volvo header tank, battery, alternator belt, and the above pumps.

Looks like a small oil leak from the cam pulley seal or it is running down from above to so if it gets worse, I'll change. Other issues have been intermittent window operation and front speakers that cut out.

The Green Machine: In for a respray following a new windscreen being fitted. Due out last week (!) but now before the end of the month. Since purchase it has had a new clutch master (2317), engine mount, and some TLC.

Will post pics when they are reunited.

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scoobyh123
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scoobyh123 » Sun Nov 25, 2018 10:51 pm

The intermittent windows sound like the fusebox. Probably needs resoldering, if it's beginning to fail it loses the power to several circuits and the most obvious is the windows. Could be another problem but that's the most likely.
Does the intermittent wipe variable delay work or does that default to the 10 second interval regardless of where the control is set? Can't think of the other "tell-tale signs" but usually those two together are enough to point the finger at the fusebox.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
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zcar12
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by zcar12 » Mon Nov 26, 2018 11:27 am

For your intermittent window problems, try re soldering every joint on the drivers door switch pack. It cured all my window problems.

scotty2
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scotty2 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 2:58 pm

Just an update on a few issues.
TB2 has had occasional window issues as mentioned in the Electrics thread. Heater blower occasionally (rarely) is inoperative. and dash lights sometimes hesitant to light up. From advice received, I will have to try the Fuse Box Solder treatment. Getting around 32 mpg.

The Green Machine is haunted. Central locking randomly popping open again or closing when driving along. I sprayed WD on and in all locks and it seemed to improve. I bought a set of micro switches after reading about the usual faulty mechanism. Found the battery completely flat the other day and the NS rear window down. Charged it up and left it overnight. Next day, not enough juice to start it but when I switched the ignition off, there was a buzzing noise from the NSR door as if the window was trying to move.

Son put it back on charge and went out after a couple of hours to find the interior lights flashing on and off and the OSR window down. It wouldn't go back up. Took terminals off battery and it wouldn't take a charge. New battery in today and suddenly all symptoms have gone for now. Windows all work as does central locking. Hope it was a low voltage issue.
It gets about 23 miles to a gallon of LPG but there were lots of short journeys.

Not been able to get photos of the pair together while clean due to weather!

Just finished reading the "Rover 800 Series- The Full Story" A good read.

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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scoobyh123 » Sat Feb 02, 2019 3:11 pm

Correction to your words - the Green Machine was haunted! :P

A dying battery will cause all those symptoms and more, even when the alternator is charging it. Out of interest, what sort of charger were you using to try and charge it when it wouldn't take a charge? I'm wondering if we're back to the calcium battery not charging problems i've known a lot of. Should be a "smart" alternator on that one though but it's a long time since i saw under the bonnet of it so can't remember. Check your charging voltage with the engine (and alternator) cold, also check it once it's warmed up a bit. Check to see if your battery is a calcium variety. I may have a solution to the problem if it is what i suspect.

It seeems that on the 800, if the battery voltage drops suddenly the windows will come down, usually all of them but occasionally just one. I think it's a safety feature so that if someone drives their car into a river or similar causing a sudden drop in battery voltage, the windows open to provide an escape route.

If you're doing mainly short runs, 23mpg on gas is probably about right, will be similar ish to petrol but obviously a lot cheaper! Still equates to about 29-30mpg on petrol which isn't bad.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

scotty2
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scotty2 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:06 pm

Pic of the pair at The Black Swan Classic Car meet in East Yorkshire. Fastback recently Exorcised! The new battery is a conventional Lead/Acid. It was my old faithful normal charger that I tried - the needle wouldn't even flicker on the charger, which it will do if just flat. My intelligent one will not charge dead batteries unless you put a booster or jump it until it decides to start charging.

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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 4:57 pm

Looking good! :D

Do you have any photos/links of the new battery so i can track one down? When i needed a conventional lead-acid battery for mine recently, i couldn't find one for love nor money, not that i had much to offer of either! :lol:
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

scotty2
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scotty2 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:25 pm

Battery for Fastback is a: TAB 100, 73Ah, 680A.

My saloon also had a new battery but it was a Platinum Prestige 075E. 60Ah, 550A.
Why the Fastback needs a bigger battery capacity, who knows? Maybe higher spec electrics or something.

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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scoobyh123 » Mon Feb 04, 2019 6:57 pm

The standard batteries for 800 models :

Petrol = 027 (latterly 075)
Diesel = 096 (latterly 096)

The reason your fastback had an 096/100 in is along the lines of one of the previous owners had a flat battery one morning after notusing it for a while, he went to a motor factors and found the biggest battery that would fit in the space which just happened to be an 096/100. IT's always a good shout tofit an uprated battery as the OEMs only fit what they deem will reliably start it.

Any links/photos of the lead-acid battery in question please?
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
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'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

deano
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by deano » Mon Feb 04, 2019 10:09 pm

Windows opening on there own is a sign of a bad earth or No earth even.
It does also happen when trying to start the motor with a half dead battery , but i think that is also cos of the bad earth connection too
1993 Rover 827 SLI Fastback Mk2
1999 Rover 825 Sterling Saloon Mk2 (HGF)
------------------
Previously
1996 Rover 825 Sterling Coupe Mk2
1993 Rover 827 Sterling Saloon Mk2
1990 Rover 827 Sterling Saloon Mk1
1972 Rover P6 2000TC

scotty2
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scotty2 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:25 am

As promised:


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scoobyh123
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 11:36 am

scotty2 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:25 am
As promised:


Image
Thanks for that! Did a bit of digging and it is indeed a Calcium technology battery :

https://www.tab.si/tds/tds.php?id=246073

Scroll down to where it says "TECHNOLOGY" and then look at "Grid Type". Chemical symbol for Calcium is "Ca".

I'd suggest you check the charging voltage on a cold engine at idle and also a hot engine, with no load (e.g. headlights, HRW etc) it should be about 15V give or take about 0.1V when cold and 14.7V or above when hot.
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

scotty2
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scotty2 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:12 pm

Strange. It has a big "Pb" label that you can't see stuck on the side. Plubnum - Lead - (I am a Charted Chemist ;-)

Must look up this new fangled Ca battery stuff.

Ah Interesting... Might not be a Silver Calcium one.

WIKI:
Silver Calcium alloy batteries are a type of lead-acid battery with grids made from lead-calcium-silver alloy, instead of the traditional lead-antimony alloy or newer lead-calcium alloy. They stand out for its resistance to corrosion and the destructive effects of high temperatures. The result of this improvement is manifested in increased battery life and maintaining a high starting power over time.
Silver calcium batteries generally require more charging voltage (14.4 to 14.8 V) and deteriorate rapidly in vehicles which do not provide the required voltage range. (Alternators) which never reach required voltage range will cause rapid sulfation due to battery never being charged fully. As a general rule, silver-calcium batteries should not be installed to vehicles or systems which are not specifically designed for silver calcium battery chemistry. This also may occur with static chargers, some of which fail to charge these batteries.

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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scoobyh123 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 2:21 pm

scotty2 wrote:
Wed Feb 06, 2019 1:12 pm
Strange. It has a big "Pb" label that you can't see stuck on the side. Plubnum - Lead - (I am a Charted Chemist ;-)

Must look up this new fangled Ca battery stuff.

Ah Interesting... Might not be a Silver Calcium one.

WIKI:
Silver Calcium alloy batteries are a type of lead-acid battery with grids made from lead-calcium-silver alloy, instead of the traditional lead-antimony alloy or newer lead-calcium alloy. They stand out for its resistance to corrosion and the destructive effects of high temperatures. The result of this improvement is manifested in increased battery life and maintaining a high starting power over time.
Silver calcium batteries generally require more charging voltage (14.4 to 14.8 V) and deteriorate rapidly in vehicles which do not provide the required voltage range. (Alternators) which never reach required voltage range will cause rapid sulfation due to battery never being charged fully. As a general rule, silver-calcium batteries should not be installed to vehicles or systems which are not specifically designed for silver calcium battery chemistry. This also may occur with static chargers, some of which fail to charge these batteries.
You've saved me a lot of typing and brain-wracking by going to Wikipedia, thanks for that! Over recent times i've had to do a lot of research on it for various reasons, mainly the fact my battery kept going flat with no other causes!

I have to say, Wiki isn't quite right, silver-calcium (usually referred to simply as calcium) batteries (as you've found out have silver-calcium instead of lead-antimony on one set of plates to help catalyse the electrlysis action) need about 14.7V to start the charging process. At ~15.0V, they tend to go high resistance, so self-protect against overcharging. I'm no chemist (scraped an "O" level errr decades ago!) but i understand the basics of it from an electronics point of view.

This explains that side of things and how to boost your charging voltage if necessary :

http://www.smartgauge.co.uk/alt_mod.html

Going on the manufacturers data sheet for that battery, i'd suggest it is a calcium battery so just keep an eye on things. :wink: :D
Cheers,
Dave


'94 827 Sterling saloon
'88 Volvo 760 V6 Estate
All auto :D
Image
'95 827 Coupé LPG gone but not forgotten!

scotty2
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Re: Thunderbird 2 & The Green Machine

Post by scotty2 » Wed Feb 06, 2019 5:57 pm

Wow! Every day is a school day. I''ll measure the charging voltage to check, but that article looks like a solution if I have, I mean he has (!) a problem.

Thanks.

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